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Post by jimboky on Sept 22, 2019 14:27:42 GMT
it seems to me that the UN causes more problems then they solve, last thing I would want to see during some sort of disaster is help from UN,
there are U-Tubes of life during early 1900's where you can see life before cars really took hold, ones from London, New York, Paris,,,,,,,,, you ready to go back to horse?? Do the Amish really have the right idea?
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flatandy
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Post by flatandy on Sept 22, 2019 14:41:06 GMT
What are the problems that the UN is causing? The UN is incapable of fully solving these problems because it's underfunded, underequipped and doesn't have a mandate, but it's weird to describe it as causing them.
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Post by perrykneeham on Sept 22, 2019 14:50:30 GMT
Yeah. Certainly enough to give them a bloody nose and to kick off a far wider conflict.
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Post by perrykneeham on Sept 22, 2019 14:53:54 GMT
They may have threatened to go it on their own, to which the US has said "FFS don't do that, have some aid to stop it happening again." Ah. You're living in the old paradigm where we could trust that US foreign policy was based on fighty US Presidents trying to impose US doctrine across the world. If the reports about Trump's threats to the Ukraine are right, now US aid, foreign and military policy is no purely longer based around even America's deranged ideas of self-defence and power projection. Now it's all contingent on what foreign powers offer to Trump personally. Amusing, but please, not in front the others. They'll just repeat it.
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flatandy
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Post by flatandy on Sept 22, 2019 15:03:06 GMT
What's wrong about it? Trump apparently tried to withhold aid to the Ukraine until the Ukraine did his bidding in terms of interfering in the next election. How do we now trust any other US foreign policy action to be about US interests rather than Trump's personal gain.
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Post by perrykneeham on Sept 22, 2019 15:06:12 GMT
What's wrong about it? Trump apparently tried to withhold aid to the Ukraine until the Ukraine did his bidding in terms of interfering in the next election. How do we now trust any other US foreign policy action to be about US interests rather than Trump's personal gain. I guess the last part depends on how credible you find the first.
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flatandy
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Post by flatandy on Sept 22, 2019 15:10:45 GMT
You agree that if the first part is true, then it is very problematic?
Because Trump appears to have admitted the first part.
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Post by perrykneeham on Sept 22, 2019 16:09:09 GMT
Link?
Genuine question. I haven't seen reference to it in the rational media this side of the pond.
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Post by jimboky on Sept 22, 2019 16:24:37 GMT
let me guess, Trump should be impeached,, this is cause what? 5, or is it 6, yet he is polling at his record high, you think he will be able to get Pence president in 2024?
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Post by perrykneeham on Sept 22, 2019 16:33:04 GMT
Trump should be gassed. As should the American electorate.
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flatandy
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Post by flatandy on Sept 22, 2019 16:42:27 GMT
Link for example. We know explicitly (because Trump, Giuiliani and the rest said so) that Trump was conspiring with a foreign government to get political dirt on an opponent. What we don't know yet is whether the administration's refusal to deliver the aid was linked to this. That's why Congress needs to hear the whistleblower's complaint and why the intelligence committee should hear transcripts of the call. As far as I'm concerned, if Trump withheld or threatened to withhold aid because the Ukrainians weren't doing his electoral dirty work, then he needs to be removed from office.
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Post by perrykneeham on Sept 22, 2019 17:18:07 GMT
Paywall. Looks pretty girlish TBH.
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flatandy
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Post by flatandy on Sept 22, 2019 17:24:51 GMT
WaPo usually lets you see 5 articles a month. Let's find another link. This one for example. Trump tried to get electoral kompromat on Biden from Ukraine. This is acknowledged by everyone. This is already shockingly illegal and fucks up democracy. Trump may have used the threat of withholding US aid from the Ukraine for this. The second point is the one that I've been asking about - does anyone think it's OK if Trump did this?
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Post by perrykneeham on Sept 22, 2019 17:57:29 GMT
I'm wondering if that sort of article illustrates a more profound handicap inherent in the US political system. This is just the partisan opinion of a politically-motivated opponents presented as fact, isn't it?
It's had the legs kicked out from underneath it before it even gets going.
Donald Trump is a cynical arsehole but it should be much, much easier to bring him down than the evidence suggests.
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flatandy
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Post by flatandy on Sept 22, 2019 18:58:12 GMT
You seem to have trouble reading.
In what way has it had its legs kicked out?
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flatandy
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Post by flatandy on Sept 22, 2019 19:05:46 GMT
But you are wrong that people should find it easy to bring down Trump. You really can't bring him down at all unless almost half of his own party decides that he has committed high crimes and misdemeanors. Basically, until the Republicans in the Senate get over their Stockholm Syndrome and stop being hostage to Trump and actually face up to his wrongdoing, he can do what he likes.
The question I keep asking is whether we think it would be OK for him to have used withholding US aid for personal political gain. At the moment, the Republican Senate appear to think that it would. I'm trying to see if anyone on here agrees.
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Post by perrykneeham on Sept 22, 2019 19:09:59 GMT
It's almost as if democracy has betrayed you.
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flatandy
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Post by flatandy on Sept 22, 2019 19:21:36 GMT
Unwilling to answer either question?
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Post by perrykneeham on Sept 22, 2019 19:36:35 GMT
You've no proof of either. It's innuendo, at best.
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flatandy
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Post by flatandy on Sept 22, 2019 19:38:18 GMT
I've no proof of the thing that I'm asking "if it happened..." about? Hilarious.
You're still unwilling to say if it would be OK if it had happened?
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