Gazans are told to hide in Mosqus and schools

[lala]

Jan 15, 2009 13:54:38 GMT @cobblers said:

I suppose the Israelis reckoned without the ignorance and stupidity of the West. Having issued warnings over a period of week after Hamas broke the ceasefire and started launching rockets, they proboably (wrongly)assumed that the West would say 'Hamas started it, they were warned, what could Israel do - they havbe an obligation to their citizens to prevent them being attacked'

They reckoned without the irrationality and latent anti-semitism of the West.

What was anti-Semetic (latently or otherwise) about what I said? How is criticising a foolish action by the Israeli government anti-Semetic. Don't bandy serious words around.

Oddly, you don't think Israel's obligation doesn't seem to extend to doing something that might really increase the safety of their citizens in the long term. THey could have taken advantage of the ceasefire to talk to Fatah and start dismantling some West Bank settlements, when instead their populations increased. Instead, they did nothing.

[reverend]

hamas were not responsible is rather misleading as islamic jihad work hand in hand with hamas, and if you think there is no collusion there your naive in the extreme, also you obviously failed to note what the hamas party was dong when it was hit!

[newyorker]

lala is a Hamas shill.

[reverend]

Just heard from a guy in the IDF that a barring any unforseen circumstances a ceasefire will be in effect in 72 hours!

[voice]

The Israeli spokes people are soundling more and more like that happless Iraqi sopesperson during the US invation.
'there is no humaitarian crisis in Gaza' and 'we dont target civilians and never shoot at children'. Good job pinioio didnt get the job, his nose would have been a mile long by now

[puffin]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7831588.stm

A very distressing read.

[auldhippy]

I'm really quite concerned at Avieder's assertion that this conflict is ours, part of the greater conflict with radical Islam that we are all concerned with. It is no such thing. Certainly radical islam concerns itself with Israel but the root cause of this conflict is real estate that Israel are occupying in contravention of countless UN SC resolutions and international consensus.

The answer to how to stop Hamas lobbing rockets into Israel (proper) is simple, end the illegal occupation, return to the 67 borders, allow the creation of the Palestinian state on the land always destined to be Palestine.

Israel is not fighting for its survival but for its dimensions, it is the Palestinians who are fighting for their survival, for a homeland, for justice and they have international law and consensus on their side.

Hamas were (no longer quite understandably) becoming less intransigent and were talking about changing their charter, even recognising Israel as a result of having to represent their electorate and not just their membership. It is a mistake (that Sharon made before with Arafat) not to negotiate with the elected interlocutors of the Palestinian people, it is the duty of all democracies to ensure more can be achieved with the ballot box than the bomb and that, by sidelining Hamas, is what we have failed to do.

No Avieder, this is not our shared conflict, this is very much your conflict, of your making and the solution lies not in our hands, or in Obamas but in yours. Simply obey UN SC resolutions.

[cobblers]

Only because idiots like you Lala (even though you recognise Hamas' tactic) continue to criticise only Israel.

If you recognise Hamas's tactic, condemn it. And encourage others to condemn it so it will have less efficiency. You are rewarding the tactic, thereby encouraging the tactic.

And yet you claim to want peace.

[avieder]

To: Waldo, puffin, lala, oldhippy, Witch (you chose it..), Amazed

This current war is not the first in humankind. In all the wars the outmost care was to protect women and children during the battles. Even for the other side it was considered unworthy and cowardly to fight women and children let alown hid behind them.
Even the Nazis (that are the scum of humankind) did not violate Churches and Monestries despite their knowledge that they served as shelters to Jewish, Gypsy and other children. On the other hand the Partizans stayed away from those places FOR THE SAME REASON. Hiding in Mosques is equivalent BUT for the fact that once that Mosque is filled with people it becomes a launching site for rockets (that were prepered there beforehand). The same with UNWRA (yesterday). The Hamas use that humanetarian organisation's instalations as military posts.
For some "strange" reason (fright?) neither the Qadies (Muslim Minisetrs), nor UN workers protest against such violation of human principles.

Now a word about AntiSemitism.
I know it exists in one form or another. It is nearly a natural reaction to the "different" it is also (alas) a bonding factor to the Israelites.
What the fundamentalist Islam terror machine is doing is to harness this trait, manipulate it so as to enable them to get the world to condemn Israel .

BTW, that clip of the girl whose family was killed is blaming Hamas because it was Hamas who killed them (as, maybe, they are Fatah)

[lala]

Jan 16, 2009 4:12:27 GMT @cobblers said:

Only because idiots like you Lala (even though you recognise Hamas' tactic) continue to criticise only Israel.

As far as Hamas goes, is it necessary to explicitly condemn an organisation that turns ten year olds into walking bombs? Okay, if it will make you happy, I'll do it, though I'd have taken it as read.

HAMAS ARE A BUNCH OF CRIMINAL, TERRORIST, GENOCIDAL, MURDERING, CHILD KILLING SCUM.

Clear enough for yah?

As for Israel, the reason I'm critical of them is two fold - I expect a bit better of them, being a supposedly civilised nation, with democracy and all that stuff. And I see them making what I think is a terrible mistake, pursuing a wrongheaded strategy that iss going to commit them to decades more of bloodshed. And I'd rather they didn't do that, for the sake of the people of Israel, and the Palestinians.

I don't think saying nothing - or even yelling encouragement - when someone is doing something manifestly stupid, is helpful. All through out this thread and the other ones on this conflict here, I've pointed out that Israel is blundering, by playing into Hamas's hands. You shouldn't do what your opponent wants you to to, you just shouldn't.

I can't help thinking some of the supposedly pro-Israel crowd are really 'pro-dead Arab' and will cheer Israel on, all the way to disaster, as long as the route is littered with dead Arabs.

Naming no names, of course. They tend toidentify themselves pretty quickly.

[auldhippy]

The deaths of 320 children and over 1000 overal in Gaza is not the fault of Hamas any more than the deaths of Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto was the fault of those Jews who rose up against their Nazis oppressors. Like the Gazans the Warsaw uprising had no choice in the venue of their resistance and like the Nazis Israel had a choice in how they suppressed it. Every occupation has had it's insurgency and being trapped in Gaza unable to leave one of the most populated areas on the planet it is ludicrous to expect anyone to believe that the responsibility for their deaths lies anywhere but at the feet of Israel. Just as the Warsaw uiprising had no choice in where they hid neither do the resistance to your illegal occupation. It is Israel who chose the venue when they broke the ceasefire. Hamas can take the responsibility for those they kill with their rockets and Israel must take responsibility for those they kill with their Apaches. F16, tanks and smart missiles.

[VikingHumpingWitch]

Jan 16, 2009 8:32:10 GMT lala said:

I can't help thinking some of the supposedly pro-Israel crowd are really 'pro-dead Arab' and will cheer Israel on, all the way to disaster, as long as the route is littered with dead Arabs.

Naming no names, of course. They tend toidentify themselves pretty quickly.

I think this is a very astute observation.

Old Hippy, I don't think comparisons with Warsaw are helpful or accurate. Israel would not launch an offensive if Hamas were not launching rockets. And I do think Hamas must be blamed for the deaths of civilians if they're hiding behind them.

I notice Avi has still not suggested where Gazans should hide if schools, mosques, residential buildings and UN compounds are out.

[sweet soul]

"Only because idiots like you Lala (even though you recognise Hamas' tactic) continue to criticise only Israel.

If you recognise Hamas's tactic, condemn it. And encourage others to condemn it so it will have less efficiency. You are rewarding the tactic, thereby encouraging the tactic.

And yet you claim to want peace. "






exactly!!!

[vania]

A serious question. If people feel that an Israeli response to Hamas just encourages the terrorists of the future what do they want Israel to do?

I genuinely think that for many of those tempted to sign up to Hamas the fact Israel is there, irrespective of what Israel does or does not do, will be seen as antagonistic.

Oh and I don't really understand the reference to global Muslim opinion. f**k it. I see no reason why israel should even take it into consideration when deciding how to tackle the problem on her borders. It's hardly likely to be fair-minded and unbiased now is it?

[vania]

Sorry IO see some did say what they think israel should have done...

Avi, would you support a notion of Israel returning to its '67 borders and diismantling West Bank settlements?

[avieder]

Jan 16, 2009 9:11:16 GMT VikingHumpingWitch said:

Jan 16, 2009 8:32:10 GMT lala said:

I I notice Avi has still not suggested where Gazans should hide if schools, mosques, residential buildings and UN compounds are out.

Actually I have, maybe not specifically on this thread, so here we go again:

Since the Israeli attacks are accurate, ordinary Gazans DO NOT HAVE TO GO ANYWHERE. Their houses are safe.

If they live in the vicinity of Hamas they just have to keep away from "secondary explosions" of the armament they store / carry.

Don't worry about the "knowing" bit. EVERYBODY in Gaza knows who is whom, even the opposeres of Hamas (Fatah)
How do you think Israel can pinpoint the target in realtime?

Did you notice in the lead thread? - That Doctor stayed in his home. His neighbours are those who went to the Mosque as, probably, it was used as rocket launching site.....

[VikingHumpingWitch]

A quick google search on Israeli Gaza bomb house suggests otherwise. But in any case, where do you go if Hamas move in next door with a rocket launcher?

[avieder]

Jan 16, 2009 11:35:03 GMT VikingHumpingWitch said:

A quick google search on Israeli Gaza bomb house suggests otherwise. But in any case, where do you go if Hamas move in next door with a rocket launcher?

That is indeed a problem, as every house can have 2, 3 or more houses nearby.

Those people can move to Hamas free neighbourhoods, or to the next house on the other side.

We are at war. It has been declared time and time again that the side that can make the fire cease are the Hamas. If they stop, so will we. Very simple. Ask the Egyptians.

[auldhippy]

I am sorry you don't like the analogy with the Warsaw Ghetto, the Vatican apparantly do and so do I. In Both scenarios the victims were holed up unable to escape and the revolt came/comes from within. Israel chose the venue for this escalation, the revolt came from within and both have/had no choice as to where they made their stance. Hamas' insurgency against an illegal occupation (or in the case of Gaza a seige) will always by necessity be from within the heavy populated Gaza. Type "human shields" into the seach facility at the BTSelem.org site & you will find 100 incidents of Israel using human shields. Hamas are not to blame for the killings of Palestinians, they are to blame for those Israelis killed by their untargetable rockets. Israel is to blame for the Palestinians they kill and have never once failed to demonstrate just how ineffective a human being is as a shield against heavy munitions. The analogy with the Warsaw Ghetto is appropriate for the reasons I've cited.

For six months Hamas respected the ceasefire though Israel never once lifted the restrictions or opened the crossings as they were required to do and in November broke the ceasefire killing six hamas



uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

[avieder]

Jan 16, 2009 12:27:57 GMT auldhippy said:

I am sorry you don't like the analogy with the Warsaw Ghetto, the Vatican apparantly do and so do I. In Both scenarios the victims were holed up unable to escape and the revolt came/comes from within. Israel chose the venue for this escalation, the revolt came from within and both have/had no choice as to where they made their stance. Hamas' insurgency against an illegal occupation (or in the case of Gaza a seige) will always by necessity be from within the heavy populated Gaza. Type "human shields" into the seach facility at the BTSelem.org site & you will find 100 incidents of Israel using human shields. Hamas are not to blame for the killings of Palestinians, they are to blame for those Israelis killed by their untargetable rockets. Israel is to blame for the Palestinians they kill and have never once failed to demonstrate just how ineffective a human being is as a shield against heavy munitions. The analogy with the Warsaw Ghetto is appropriate for the reasons I've cited.
For six months Hamas respected the ceasefire though Israel never once lifted the restrictions or opened the crossings as they were required to do and in November broke the ceasefire killing six hamas
uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

" Israel chose the venue for this escalation," A mistake, a lie or are just an innocent propagator of lies (as is the BBC)

For 8 years the Hamas bombed Israel. For 8 long years, the Israeli residences within range of Qazzam rocket could have 15 seconds to find shelter. Within those 8 years Israel left Gaza, completely at great pain, tried infinite ways to stop the rockets through diplomatic ways - all to no avail.
For the last few months we threatened, we pleaded, and simultaneously prepared to attack.
Everybody knows that the rockets are ineffective militarily but morally devastating. That is why they were used. SO THAT WE WILL HAVE NO CHANCE BUT TO RETALIATE.
The propaganda machine can only be effective if the picture is blunt and if it is not then they make it so. As far as weak minded people fail to see the lies and circumstances - that is their success.

"For six months Hamas respected the ceasefire " - Really? On what planet have you been? Nearly daily random rocket landings, constant import of rockets through the tunnels under "Philadelphi" (but for some reasons no provisions, medicine etc.). Continuing harassment and execution of "non Hamas supporters" inside Gaza.
No, my fried the "ceasefire" was ONLY by the Israelis
When it officially ended, it was Hamas who bombarded Israel with tens of rockets per day with increasing range.

I can continue but Shabbat is nearing and you are too brainwashed to comprehend anyway.