Time To Shut Down The BBC

[perrykneeham]

The BBC need to bin their selve serving Verify scheme and maybe just have a bullshit button. The problem is, that while anyone with an education would laugh at what was said, your average Guardianista will take this seriously. And be "informed" by it. And repeat it. They have the same voting rights as us.

[flatandy]

Just listened to the last four minutes, as suggested.

The only thing that's obviously wrong is the BBC having a poet, and implying that poets and poetry are important.

Heffer might be exaggerating that the UK didn't have an air force "to speak of" in '38, but it was definitely massively underequipped, understaffed and using obsolete technology and Tory Chamberlain did the right thing by signing Munich and trying to push back the start of war as long as he could, even despite knowing that it was going to blow back on him personally.

[perrykneeham]

Tripe. UK had the largest (by a considerable margin) navy in the World. The airforce had undergone considerable updates and expansion to around 140 squadrons and the army was well developed and highly professional.

[flatandy]

The largest navy (or army) isn't always the best navy (or army). Not that I mentioned either of those.

I was obviously and transparently right. The massive upgrading and expansion of the RAF was incomplete in September '39. It was incomplete during the Battle of Britain which relied on brand new radar technology (non-existent in '38) to give a false impression of numbers of non-sh*t aircraft. If the Luftwaffe had Battle of Britained it in '38 because Tory Chamberlain decided to go to war rather than appease at Munich, Britain would have lost air superiority in days and a ground invasion would have been a much more simple task for the Germans.

[voice]

The Navy was big sure, but the Airforce was still being rebuilt many of those squadrons still had some crappy planes such as the Battles (which suffered heavy losses in 1940 during the battle of France) even by wars start the RAF was still short of modern fighters, and the ones they had were under gunned compared to the 109. That didn't change till well into the battle of Britain.

As for the army, while it was professional it was still largely trained to fight WWI in fact the plan for the Battle of France was pretty much the same as the one in 1914

[mids]

That's because the Freunch and the Beulgians assured us that the Geurmans would would be held up by the Ardennes countryside and the Magineut line would stop them.

[perrykneeham]

May 6, 2024 14:43:23 GMT voice said:

The Navy was big sure, but the Airforce was still being rebuilt many of those squadrons still had some crappy planes such as the Battles (which suffered heavy losses in 1940 during the battle of France) even by wars start the RAF was still short of modern fighters, and the ones they had were under gunned compared to the 109. That didn't change till well into the battle of Britain.

As for the army, while it was professional it was still largely trained to fight WWI in fact the plan for the Battle of France was pretty much the same as the one in 1914

Simply not true. The army had taken on an entirely new doctrine and was highly mechanised. To suggest that the lack of effective firepower in Hurricanes was the proof the RAF was ineffectual is clutching at straws. Once refunded, they were highly effective gun platforms. All air forces make doctrinal errors. The Battles were one such. Stukas were another. ME110s another. In fact the German bomber force was ill-matched to the job they undertook.

[perrykneeham]

Whichever way you look at it, Simon Heffer's statement was wrong. Mids is probably right in that he is just being a contrarian twit.

Caroline Lucas, on the other hand, is a moron.

[perrykneeham]

May 6, 2024 14:41:32 GMT flatandy said:

The largest navy (or army) isn't always the best navy (or army). Not that I mentioned either of those.

I was obviously and transparently right. The massive upgrading and expansion of the RAF was incomplete in September '39. It was incomplete during the Battle of Britain which relied on brand new radar technology (non-existent in '38) to give a false impression of numbers of non-sh*t aircraft. If the Luftwaffe had Battle of Britained it in '38 because Tory Chamberlain decided to go to war rather than appease at Munich, Britain would have lost air superiority in days and a ground invasion would have been a much more simple task for the Germans.

It's never complete FFS.

[mids]

The British army in 1939 were one of the most mechanised in the world. Compare the kreuts who were mostly horse drawn by a long way.

[perrykneeham]

The French army still is, probably. That might just be their suppers though.

[perrykneeham]

1937 for radar BTW.

[voice]

Well I never said it was ineffectual due to only have browning machine guns (Spits as well as Hurricanes btw), just under-gunned, they didn't fit 20mm cannons until well into the battle of Britain, but in 1938 there was only a small number of squadrons with modern fighters, this lasted well into 1940 where squadrons of older fighters were decimated in France.

Yes the army had been mechanized, but tanks were used in penny pockets, a tank group at Cambrai would have recognized tank formations in 1940, in fact British tank use didn't really catch up to modern warfare till Montgomery took over in Egypt prior to El Alamein. The German tactics were simply years ahead, Guderian simply went through the allies like a knife through butter.

[perrykneeham]

Pish, tank forces had already been designed in three distinct categories- infantry, medium and cruiser tanks. You can't seriously say that all tank formation were WwI- style infantry support systems.

[flatandy]

None of Chain Home was operational until '38 and most of it not until '39 including the ability to pass information on to fighter squadrons.

Either way, Heffer wasn't wrong.

[flatandy]

Also, the BBC should be shut down for pretending poetry is important

[flatandy]

Also, what kind of idiot throws a hissy fit about the kinds of guests on Radio 4 shows. If you're going to shut down news stations because they interview people with opinions, you're going to end up shutting everyone down. And this isn't even news.

And of course the BBC usually fills its airwaves with people with much wronger, much more offensive, and much more right wing opinions than Simon Heffer.

[perrykneeham]

Ah. So you've run out of steam.

[perrykneeham]

May 6, 2024 16:13:21 GMT flatandy said:

None of Chain Home was operational until '38 and most of it not until '39 including the ability to pass information on to fighter squadrons.

Either way, Heffer wasn't wrong.

Doesn't matter. You and Heffer were wrong. Radar systems were in place, mainly on the approaches to London, way before what became known as Chain Home.

[flatandy]

I haven't run out of steam. I'm pointing out that throwing a hissy fit because of what interviewees say is positively bonkers.