Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2019 18:07:56 GMT
Another fudge I expect; neither this nor that. They daren't damn the PM (not done ol' boy) nor appear too blasé about being seen to be serving the best interests of the public.
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Post by hammerhead on Sept 23, 2019 18:13:32 GMT
Brexit is no more ill defined than remain. What sort of remain were you hoping for? Take us through all the different remains (no etc...). In/out the euro? In/out schengen? A eurmy? Turkey in/out? Centralised tax raising? All possibilities for remain. If there's to be another referendum, you'd probably want 3 or 4 scenarios as different remain questions. Remainers, now's your chance. Explain your vision for remain! Brexit isn't defined at all, that's precisely the reason it's dragging on for years. Moggy explained this more eloquently than I could, but Remain is simply that. Stay in and - as a powerful member - be a part of shaping the EU. I have opinions on Schengen and the Euro and lots of stuff on which other Remainers would disagree. What we agree on is being in and having an effect. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Sept 23, 2019 18:19:17 GMT
"Stay in and - as a powerful member - be a part of shaping the EU."
Bollocks. They told David Cameron to piss off. We've had nye-on three generations of taking that tack.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2019 18:26:52 GMT
“The dominant feeling among informed observers is that the government is on the ropes and it’s going to lose,” said Philippe Sands QC, professor of law at University College London.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2019 18:28:12 GMT
"Stay in and - as a powerful member - be a part of shaping the EU." Bollocks. They told David Cameron to piss off. We've had nye-on three generations of taking that tack. Not at all. 3 generations of shaping the EU by democratic vote. |
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Post by hammerhead on Sept 23, 2019 18:29:25 GMT
Thatcher negotiated the rebate back in '85. We opted out of Schengen and the Euro.
There seems to me plenty of examples where we controlled our independence and our relationship with the EU.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2019 18:33:24 GMT
Official EU voting records show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix. In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%. linkCameron was/is just a loser. An arrogant one at that. And they rightly f ucked him off. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Sept 23, 2019 19:00:05 GMT
Thatcher negotiated the rebate back in '85. We opted out of Schengen and the Euro. There seems to me plenty of examples where we controlled our independence and our relationship with the EU. Not enough. QED. |
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moggyonspeed
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Post by moggyonspeed on Sept 23, 2019 22:34:35 GMT
95% win rate “not enough”?
Obviously, you must think that Boris’s 0% win rate is perhaps something we should aspire to then.
I was having a bit of a giggle before, but no longer; you really did go to the same school as Abbott, dintcha?
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Post by perrykneeham on Sept 24, 2019 4:26:53 GMT
95% win rate, Dr. Goebbels?
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mids
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Post by mids on Sept 24, 2019 6:28:43 GMT
"Moggy explained this more eloquently than I could, but Remain is simply that. Stay in and - as a powerful member - be a part of shaping the EU."
Come on, nobody's that dumb... anyway, it's patently obvious that any argument and subsequent referendum campaign for remain needs to explain exactly what remain means. There are clearly different types of memberships of the EU, for the moment at least, that need explaining in the context of the inevitable "more Europe" EU. What needs explaining is what this will be like in the future and also, what sort of brave Cockleshell hero fighting the enemy behind their lines (see Mog's claims) will be going on. What are your's and Mog's plans to blow up the ships in the EU dock?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 6:32:53 GMT
Please explain this "more Europe" you keep bandying around. Not sure what you're getting at.
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mids
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Post by mids on Sept 24, 2019 7:16:31 GMT
It's a commonly used phrase to informally describe the one-way process of further and further integration towards a fully federal European state.
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bertruss2
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Post by bertruss2 on Sept 24, 2019 8:34:13 GMT
It's a commonly used phrase to informally describe the one-way process of further and further integration towards a fully federal European state. That's a matter for the democratic decisions of 28 independent, sovereign states. The motivation for Leave is not a failure to 'reform' the EU, it's an irrational hostility to foreigners and a rejection of our common European citizenship. The objection to the EU is senseless English, or British, nationalism. It is expressed in the constant references to 'The War' (among other things). 'The War' is so ingrained in the British psyche that it's brought in reflexively, without even being aware that we're doing it. For example the repatriation of Brits from the Thomas Cook collapse is called, again and again' the greatest peacetime operation of its kind; the unspoken parallel is with Dunkirk. Of course, remain voters have the same cultural references. The difference is in not being dominated by prejudice to the extent of tearing up our membership card of an organization which unites 510 million people and abandoning the advantages of being in the world's most advanced economic area with with global connections and agreements. The Leaver claim that they are afraid of being compelled to be part of the 'ever closer union of the peoples of Europe' is sheer hypocrisy. One of David Cameron's 'reforms' was an exemption for the UK from this clause of the Treaty. But that was not enough for Leavers. Because nothing could be enough. Leave means pandering to delusions of national superiority and the damage to the lives and livelihoods it involves is 'worth it' especially when they think other people will pay the price and not them. |
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Post by Minge är en jävla besserwisser on Sept 24, 2019 8:36:50 GMT
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moggyonspeed
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Post by moggyonspeed on Sept 24, 2019 9:07:20 GMT
It's a commonly used phrase to informally describe the one-way process of further and further integration towards a fully federal European state. No. It’s a dog-whistle technique to justify yer average xenophobe’s mistaken belief that expansion of the EU (as more countries join) equates to increasing levels of European meddling. Even Le Pen understands the difference, so I’m surprised somewhat that you don’t. Or can’t. Or indeed won’t. |
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mids
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Post by mids on Sept 24, 2019 9:29:29 GMT
Ah. You don't even know what's meant by it. It doesn't have much to do with expansion, it's almost all about further integration and ceding more power to the EU. Glad to have helped.
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mids
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Post by mids on Sept 24, 2019 9:32:01 GMT
Typical BBC. The not quite supreme court is delivering its verdict and there's not sound.
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mids
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Post by mids on Sept 24, 2019 9:36:08 GMT
Justiciable...boo!
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mids
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Post by mids on Sept 24, 2019 9:38:18 GMT
Going against us democrats.
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