It's Come To This

[perrykneeham]

Nov 18, 2019 21:32:17 GMT voice said:

could easily be the brextremists who cling the inane idea leaving the EU is in the UK's best long term interests rather than the long decline we are already seeing.

Link?

[Deleted]

Worse than conspiracy theorists are those who cling vociferously to their own cherished views despite the long trail of dead and maimed left behind as proof that their chosen path or profession isn't quite as perfect as they'd like everyone to believe.

[voice]

I agree chiropractors, homeopaths naturopaths and other quacks and snake oil paddlers all cling to their woo in the face of overwhelming evidence its all bollox and causes unnecessary suffering and death to those who fall pray to the scams these people run.

[rick49]

Mattel gets rid of blue and red cards in 'nonpartisan' UNO deck

www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/uno-nonpartisan-deck-with-no-blue-or-red-cards

Yeah. As if the left and right members of a family are going to visit each other during the holidays in the first place.

[rick49]

Nov 19, 2019 16:06:48 GMT voice said:

I agree chiropractors, homeopaths naturopaths and other quacks and snake oil paddlers all cling to their woo in the face of overwhelming evidence its all bollox and causes unnecessary suffering and death to those who fall pray to the scams these people run.

I can understand Big Pharma opposing any alternative considering they make their living off of people shoving their drugs down their throats. And I can understand surgeons opposing anything that would make surgery unnecessary considering they make their living carving into people.

[flatandy]

I mean, that's a good argument for getting rid of privatised health care, and one reason that the UK's overall health spend is a so much lower than the US's.

Personally, I actually mostly trust a (properly regulated) free market in pharma. But I can see the argument for nationalisation.

[voice]

There is this weird idea pushed by the woosterd and quacks that pharma and actual medicine just does stuff only to make money, but really it just does not add up, vaccinations are so much cheaper than treating the diseases they prevent, hovering for instance costs about $350 where as treatment for cervical cancer costs millions and there's still a good chance of early death. Same with surgery, fixing something like a broken Noam surgically as oppose to just leaving it and hoping for the best will get someone better and back to work far better.

The irony of cause is the woosterd and quacks are the ones who's rubes have to come back again and again, chiropractors for instance will trap their marks for years over a bad back, where as a PT you see for a month and you're done.

And I have to point out there really is not an actual alternative to most actual medicines, you get TB, hep C, Tetanus, Diotheria, pneumonia or sepsis, no amount of herbs and spices or diluted water will make you better.

[Deleted]

Medical errors are the third-leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer.

[voice]

again this made up stat has long been debunked, but like MMR causing autism, its a lie that won't die.

[perrykneeham]

Funny how health is so beset by myths.

[voice]

well medicine is certainly not, only the lies that become myths are the ones peddled by the woosters.

[Deleted]

You're just as insanely possessed by your own false beliefs as those you constantly damn. Lighten up a bit and admit for once that your chosen profession isn't next to godliness.

Do you deny this John Hopkins report?

Seriously, it's interesting. I'd like to know why so many are, according to you, lying about the medical world. Are they all 'woosters' as you call them, all just wanting to damage the medical profession's reputation out of spite?

[flatandy]

The woo-merchants, the loonies, the data ignorers, the science-deniers, the placebo peddlars all make their living through the fact that people don't want to use real medicine. It is in their interests to pretend that medicine doesn't work, to tell people that trying to cure their problems with proven treatments is dangerous.

It's not spite. It's more cynical than that.

[voice]

There is a myth promulgated by both quacks and academics who should know better that medical errors are the third leading cause of death in the United States. You’ll see figures of 250,000 or even 400,000 deaths each year due to medical errors, which would indeed be the third leading cause of death after heart disease (635,000/year) and cancer (598,000/year). When last I discussed this issue three years ago, specifically a rather poor study out of The Johns Hopkins that estimated that 250,000 to 400,000 deaths per year are due to medical errors, I pointed out how these figures are vastly inflated and don’t even make any sense on the surface. For one thing, there are only 2.7 million total deaths per year in the US, which would mean that these estimates, if accurate, would translate into 9% to 15% of all deaths being due to medical errors. Those numbers just don’t make sense. It’s even worse than that, though. This particular study looked at hospital-based deaths, of which there are around 715,000 per year, which would imply that these estimates, if accurate, would mean that medical errors cause between 35% and 56% of all in-hospital deaths, numbers that are highly implausible, something that would be obvious if anyone ever bothered to look at the appropriate denominators. Unfortunately, in the three years since its publication, the Makary study has taken on a life of its own, and it’s basically become commonly accepted knowledge that medical errors are the third leading cause of death, even though this estimate is based on highly flawed studies and these numbers are five- to ten-fold greater than the number of people who die in auto collisions every year.

sciencebasedmedicine.org/are-medical-errors-really-the-third-most-common-cause-of-death-in-the-u-s-2019-edition/


It is an unquestioned belief among believers in alternative medicine and even just among many people who do not trust conventional medicine that conventional medicine kills. Not only does exaggerating the number of people who die due to medical complications or errors fit in with the world view of people like Mike Adams and Joe Mercola, but it’s good for business. After all, if conventional medicine is as dangerous as claimed, then alternative medicine starts looking better in comparison.

In contrast, real physicians and real medical scientists are very much interested in making medicine safer and more efficacious. One way we work to achieve that end is by using science to learn more about disease and develop new treatments that are as efficacious or more so than existing treatments with fewer adverse reactions (clinical equipoise). Another strategy is to use what we know to develop quality metrics against which we measure our practice. Indeed, I am heavily involved in just such an effort for breast cancer patients. Then, of course, we try to estimate how frequent medical errors are and how often they cause harm or even death. All of these efforts are very difficult, of course, but perhaps the most difficult of all is the last one. Estimates of medical errors depend very much on how medical errors are defined, and whether a given death can be attributed to a medical error depends very much on how it is determined whether a death was preventable and whether a given medical error led to that death.

sciencebasedmedicine.org/are-medical-errors-really-the-third-most-common-cause-of-death-in-the-u-s/

Both articles go over why it's a nonsense claim, in great detail, now I know ootlg almost certainly won't read or even understand, but the truth remains.

[voice]

And as fandy has said the woosterd lie cos liars lie, every time they get someone to forgo actual medicine for snake oil it furthers the graft, big woo is a multi billion quid scam, lots at stake scaring people away from real treatment into the hand of health fruadsters.

[Deleted]

Fair enough. What are the real medical death figures?

[voice]

Read the articles it's all there with links to the data and nuanced explanations

[Deleted]

They were estimations. All arguable. There must be some register somewhere which has the true figures?

[voice]

As it says clearly, it's just not as simple as that, some are clear cut, the example of a surgeon puncturing the aorta opposed to the wrong antibiotic for a sepsis patient who's disease was so advanced they'd have died anyway.

[flatandy]

I'm just trying to work out what OOTLG's argument is, here. Is he suggesting that nobody should get medical treatment if there's even a risk of complications?