Pro Israel thread

[moggyonspeed]

"Another question could be why did creation stop."

The question presupposes that creation has stopped. Where is the evidence that it has? Not even in the Bible does God say explicitly that creation is at an end.

Assumption, without proof, is one of the worst forms of science. Or of anything, come to that.

[Deleted]

Although "Let's assume" can be a springboard to astounding discovery. That's the problem with online semantics - face to face discussion is generally-speaking much less likely to create misunderstanding.

[bertruss2]

If "survival of the fittest" is the key

You are trotting out all the clichés of Creationists. Do you accept or don't you that the religious accounts of the origin of the universe are fictional ?

[perrykneeham]

Not sure that "survival of the fittest" is a Creationist cliché.

[Deleted]

More Darwinian for sure.

[bertruss2]

Not sure that "survival of the fittest" is a Creationist cliché.

It is. They think it's an endorsement of the Law of the Jungle, where the strong smash the weak. It's nothing like that at all. It means 'best adapted to the circumstances'.

[perrykneeham]

I know what it means. I just don't think it's their cliche. How they interpret it is down to them.

[perrykneeham]

In fact, the term was coined by a famous agnostic humanist.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Spencer

[avieder]

Apr 2, 2019 14:44:11 GMT bertruss2 said:

If "survival of the fittest" is the key

You are trotting out all the clichés of Creationists. Do you accept or don't you that the religious accounts of the origin of the universe are fictional ?

I am sorry that I didn't express myself clearly enough:
The Creation was done in a natural way.
The sequence of the six days follows a "Darvinistic" like evolution.
A day could be a million years in G-d's eye. Except few supernatural events, everything can be explained.
Our perception is that the creation continues all the time.
Thus we bless every natural extraordinery phenomena as "... Doing Genesis actions".
Survival of the fittest is but another tool. Like the Solar system, gravity, mass, energy, time and space in the hand of The Creator.

[bertruss2]

The Creation was done in a natural way.

The creation myths, whether Sumerian, Greek, Hebrew, Egyptian, Indian, and many others, were attempts by our ancestors to understand the world. The gods in these stories are imaginary beings. The myths have some entertainment value, especially for children.

[Gort]

Avi Said
I relate myself to Adam & Eve who were created in the image of G-d and to Avraham my forefather.
In your geneology tree you are the most developed and your offsprings are more and better than you.
In my geneology my forefathers were the nearest to G-d and I am but a dwarf sitting on the shoulder of giants.[/quote][/b]

So lets set the scene here and the family tree of Adam and Eve.. So these 2 characters appear out of know where as a paire of adults with a language clothing food and shelter to see them through all seasons.
This would mean they both would have to do a serious amout of shagging to produce children of both sexes who would then grow up to shag each other and have children who would grow up to shag each other and possibly their cousins (just for a bit of variety) which eventually will lead to the almost 4 billion people living today.
So what you are saying is that the good lord advocates incest.. Cant you see how insane it is to believe in this worse than childish shiit...
THANK FUK IM AN ATHIEST!!!

[avieder]

Apr 3, 2019 0:21:36 GMT Gort said:

Avi Said
I relate myself to Adam & Eve who were created in the image of G-d and to Avraham my forefather.
In your geneology tree you are the most developed and your offsprings are more and better than you.
In my geneology my forefathers were the nearest to G-d and I am but a dwarf sitting on the shoulder of giants.

[/b]

So lets set the scene here and the family tree of Adam and Eve.. So these 2 characters appear out of know where as a paire of adults with a language clothing food and shelter to see them through all seasons.
This would mean they both would have to do a serious amout of shagging to produce children of both sexes who would then grow up to shag each other and have children who would grow up to shag each other and possibly their cousins (just for a bit of variety) which eventually will lead to the almost 4 billion people living today.
So what you are saying is that the good lord advocates incest.. Cant you see how insane it is to believe in this worse than childish shiit...
THANK FUK IM AN ATHIEST!!! [/quote]

Then came the flood....
So, actually we are decent of Noah.
The question of morality, incest etc. was only after the Law was given to humankind.
So we are back to square one. Thanks.

[bertruss2]

Then came the flood....

Don't be silly. The Hebrew Flood story is myth not fact. In the natural course of events there is flooding and heavy rain, sometimes particularly catastrophic which remains in the folk memory and is the basis for a story about the gods punishing the bad deeds of their people. There was no simultaneous flood throughout the world. These were localized events which were magnified by imagination.

The flood myth motif is found among many cultures as seen in the Mesopotamian flood stories, Deucalion and Pyrrha in Greek mythology, the Genesis flood narrative, Pralaya in Hinduism, the Gun-Yu in Chinese mythology, Bergelmir in Norse mythology, in the lore of the K'iche' and Maya peoples in Mesoamerica, the Lac Courte Oreilles Ojibwa tribe of Native Americans in North America, the Muisca, and Cañari Confederation, in South America, Africa, and the Aboriginal tribes in southern Australia. (Wikipedia, and many other sources)

[avieder]

Apr 3, 2019 23:17:38 GMT bertruss2 said:

Then came the flood....

Don't be silly. The Hebrew Flood story is myth not fact. In the natural course of events there is flooding and heavy rain, sometimes particularly catastrophic which remains in the folk memory and is the basis for a story about the gods punishing the bad deeds of their people. There was no simultaneous flood throughout the world. These were localized events which were magnified by imagination.

The flood myth motif is found among many cultures as seen in the Mesopotamian flood stories, Deucalion and Pyrrha in Greek mythology, the Genesis flood narrative, Pralaya in Hinduism, the Gun-Yu in Chinese mythology, Bergelmir in Norse mythology, in the lore of the K'iche' and Maya peoples in Mesoamerica, the Lac Courte Oreilles Ojibwa tribe of Native Americans in North America, the Muisca, and Cañari Confederation, in South America, Africa, and the Aboriginal tribes in southern Australia. (Wikipedia, and many other sources)

If the same or similar accounts are retold throught the globe, who is the silly one between us, ah?

[bertruss2]

If the same or similar accounts are retold throughout the globe, who is the silly one between us, ah?

Your problem is not being able to tell the difference between fact and fiction.Our remote ancestors invented gods as a way of explaining the world around them. They were completely wrong but acquiring knowledge has been a long process and a continuing one.

The Great Flood story was false. There was no flood that covered the world at any time in human history. Obviously, there were collective memories of unusually extensive flooding along the Nile the Euphrates and of unusually heavy rains. These catastrophes would described by primitive people as acts of the gods.

The story of Noah and his Ark is quite childish but entertaining. Maybe our ancestors meant it to be just a story that people would enjoy round the campfire. Such tales are not considered factual. Except by Creationists. There are lots of them in the United States, it's true. Ken Ham is a well known one.

[moggyonspeed]

"If the same or similar accounts are retold throughout the globe, who is the silly one between us, ah?"

Just a variation on the Flat Earth theme - nothing more.

It's no big deal that primitive peoples talked about the weather, because that's what people talk about worldwide to this day. Then, of course, stories grow with the telling, which again is part of human nature, with further embellishments perhaps added by the bright spark who committed these verbal stories to papyrus or tablet. And then, lo and behold, you have The Word of <insert favourite deity here> which an even brighter spark realises he can use to control his believers and also use as a pretext to subdue the non-believers. It's a really simple explanation really, and therein lies both its truth and its beauty.

Wilfully ignoring this truth is perhaps the only way that religious nutjobs can justify their place in history as "God's Chosen People" or somehow special - maybe one of the only things that all religions have in common.

[avieder]

Apr 4, 2019 10:04:45 GMT bertruss2 said:

If the same or similar accounts are retold throughout the globe, who is the silly one between us, ah?

Your problem is not being able to tell the difference between fact and fiction.Our remote ancestors invented gods as a way of explaining the world around them. They were completely wrong but acquiring knowledge has been a long process and a continuing one.

The Great Flood story was false. There was no flood that covered the world at any time in human history. Obviously, there were collective memories of unusually extensive flooding along the Nile the Euphrates and of unusually heavy rains. These catastrophes would described by primitive people as acts of the gods.

The story of Noah and his Ark is quite childish but entertaining. Maybe our ancestors meant it to be just a story that people would enjoy round the campfire. Such tales are not considered factual. Except by Creationists. There are lots of them in the United States, it's true. Ken Ham is a well known one.

You are mixing cause and effect.
As you showed us the fact that there was a flood is proved. Perhaps it's scale can be debated, as a function of understanding the construct of the globe, but its existance is undoubted.
The fact that it was caused by G-d is questioned by you.
Now, before giving MY answer I would like to make it clear that my concept of the divine probably differs from yours, as far as I understand it.
My concept is of an existance, like gravity, while yours is of an independent spiritual "being"
Thus, if Humans go sideways from their designated path, they disrupt the designed conduct of "nature", that results in a retaliation such as an "unusually heavy rain".
The flood itself is but the manifestation of G-d's rulling of the universe.

[Deleted]

Energy's a better term to use.

[bertruss2]

the fact that there was a flood is proved.

You have confused fiction with fact. There was no flood which wiped out the human race, except for one man and his family. Floods are natural disasters which occur every year and as a result of rivers overflowing their banks, very heavy rains or high tides. Noah's Flood is a myth. The event did not take place in reality and the characters in the story did not exist in reality.

But, you may say, although the pigs in the story were imaginary pigs, pigs exist in reality. This is not the case with gods. The god in the Hebrew myth is an imaginary being, like all the other gods. They were created by our ancestors to explain the forces of nature and to justify the morality of the time.

These childish explanations have been replaced by scientific knowledge and the morality of the tribe has developed to match standards of behaviour in civilized societies.

Homosexuality, for example, was thought to be morally wrong in the past and by many people today. But Israel is now a destination for many homosexuals when a gay pride pride parade takes place in June. Tel Aviv becomes one of the gay capitals of the world. Contrast this with earlier times when homosexuality was punished with death.

In particular, there is the absurd idea that breaking sexual taboos results in natural disasters. Are there backward religious people who are expecting fire and brimstone or a Great Flood to destroy Tel Aviv, or the whole of Israel, during Gay Pride week?

[Deleted]

Sodom - that's what I say.