Sweden

[perrykneeham]

German Nazis flee to South America (continued).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-latin-america-61184479

I suppose it's a sauce for the goose scenario - if you don't like the country, leave. Go (back) to wherever you (didn't) come from.

Still, it does speak to a general distaste for mass immigration of Muslims and the failure of integration.

[perrykneeham]

I wonder what a poll of European nations would reveal about the general attitudes towards immigration and specifically that of Muslims. I would be very surprised if the responses were positive, which probably explains why they're not commissioned but not why governments plough ahead regardless.

It looks, superficially, as if Integration hasn't worked and isn't working. Are we doing everyone a disservice?

[mids]

Multiculturalism hasn't worked very well. France's assimilation plan doesn't seem to be a success either but at least it has the merit of not trashing your own culture (or pretending you don't have one) in order to maintain the fiction that all cultures are equal.

[moggyonspeed]

Which organisation, perhaps an international one, is the arbiter of cultural equivalence or non-equivalence? Who would stake their reputation on defining what is or what is not "equal" - perhaps a very strange concept in itself?

What is culture? Is it definable? What is its basis? Religion? Politics? "A sense of fair play" - is that a culture?

And is multiculturalism a binary destination or a more fluid journey?

[ootlg]

The main issue in this case is religion and its attendant culture.

A side issue is outsiders deemed to be taking advantage of the host society's hard-earned benefits, often to its detriment: as in, I sweat blood all year round to feed the family and an outsider who's contributed nothing steps in and eats my food.

Immigration control is needed, no question about it. I suggest we start by paying reparation to those countries we've plundered, reparation paid by those who've most profited from it. And not paid in ways that can in turn be plundered by the leaders of those countries... complicated innit?

[voice]

Apr 22, 2022 7:58:40 GMT perrykneeham said:

German Nazis flee to South America (continued).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-latin-america-61184479

I suppose it's a sauce for the goose scenario - if you don't like the country, leave. Go (back) to wherever you (didn't) come from.

Still, it does speak to a general distaste for mass immigration of Muslims and the failure of integration.

Anti-vax scum, no loss to anyone really, and little wonder they are far right bigots on top, the two more than often go hand in hand these days.

[mids]

Apr 22, 2022 11:31:19 GMT moggyonspeed said:

Which organisation, perhaps an international one, is the arbiter of cultural equivalence or non-equivalence? Who would stake their reputation on defining what is or what is not "equal" - perhaps a very strange concept in itself?

What is culture? Is it definable? What is its basis? Religion? Politics? "A sense of fair play" - is that a culture?

And is multiculturalism a binary destination or a more fluid journey?

1. There isn't one, nor does there need to be. I can't think of a bigger waste of tiime than the existence of such an organisation. I suppose UNESCO might be the nearest thing there is but they never seem to have accomplished much.

2. "the way of life, especially the general customs and beliefs, of a particular group of people at a particular time". There ya go.

3. I have no idea what that means.

[mids]

Apr 22, 2022 12:31:04 GMT ootlg said:

The main issue in this case is religion and its attendant culture.

A side issue is outsiders deemed to be taking advantage of the host society's hard-earned benefits, often to its detriment: as in, I sweat blood all year round to feed the family and an outsider who's contributed nothing steps in and eats my food.

Immigration control is needed, no question about it. I suggest we start by paying reparation to those countries we've plundered, reparation paid by those who've most profited from it. And not paid in ways that can in turn be plundered by the leaders of those countries... complicated innit?

We've already given them trillions in aid. Plus the benefits of our culture, although granted they've not always taken very well. Democracy, legal systems, medicine, education etc etc. The list goes on and on. They should be paying us.

[ootlg]

We have, yes, us taxpayers. But not the likes of (rich aristos) who continue to bleed dry our own national wealth.

[moggyonspeed]

"1. ... I can't think of a bigger waste of time than the existence of such an organisation." - Again, we're aware of your difficulties.
"I suppose UNESCO might be the nearest thing there is but they never seem to have accomplished much." - Apart from increasing access to education for all (especially girls) across the globe, protection of heritage sites, promotion and monitoring of freedom of expr4ession, ideas and the press across the globe etc. etc. Still, what have the Romans ever done for us, eh?

2. "The way of life, especially the general customs and beliefs, of a particular group of people at a particular time". Yes, I am well aware of the dictionary definition but, by that same definition, some cultures will never be "equal". Not better, nor worse, just different.

3. "I have no idea what that means."
See (1) above.

[mids]

See, you've got it all wrong. Smart people can explain their ideas.

[Repat Van]

Apr 22, 2022 8:03:18 GMT perrykneeham said:

I wonder what a poll of European nations would reveal about the general attitudes towards immigration and specifically that of Muslims. I would be very surprised if the responses were positive, which probably explains why they're not commissioned but not why governments plough ahead regardless.

It looks, superficially, as if Integration hasn't worked and isn't working. Are we doing everyone a disservice?

I think it is well established that European nations are wildly Islamophobic. That doesn’t mean “integration has not worked” - it just means many Europeans, like you are raging racists. And have special issues with those who happen not to have the same faith.

Imagine making European racism a Muslim issue instead of a racism issue. But your generation will soon die off and hopefully things will start to improve.

[Repat Van]

Apr 22, 2022 8:08:42 GMT mids said:

Multiculturalism hasn't worked very well. France's assimilation plan doesn't seem to be a success either but at least it has the merit of not trashing your own culture (or pretending you don't have one) in order to maintain the fiction that all cultures are equal.

Multi-culturalism works just fine. It’s just that racists have made “multi-culturalism” a catch-all to describe “anything bad done by a non-white / non Christian” person. A British-Indian who has a drink drive conviction is a “failure of multi-culturalism” to people like you / those on the right.

No country, has “trashed their own culture” apart from in your imagination and only people who are wildly ignorant would claim that France has anything remotely resembling an “assimilationist approach”.

You may get that in some new world countries (in the Americas and the Caribbean for example) but definitely not France. In order to have a genuine assimilationist approach you have to view all citizens, irrespective of ethnicity or religion, as being equally representative of that nationality, I.e: you would have to believe all French citizens are equally French. France only sees white French people as French people. Hence its issues.

Also nobody suggests all cultures are the same what are you talking about? Cultures are wildly different and all cultures will have their positives and negatives.

[Repat Van]

Apr 22, 2022 12:31:04 GMT ootlg said:

The main issue in this case is religion and its attendant culture.

A side issue is outsiders deemed to be taking advantage of the host society's hard-earned benefits, often to its detriment: as in, I sweat blood all year round to feed the family and an outsider who's contributed nothing steps in and eats my food.

Immigration control is needed, no question about it. I suggest we start by paying reparation to those countries we've plundered, reparation paid by those who've most profited from it. And not paid in ways that can in turn be plundered by the leaders of those countries... complicated innit?

Instead of reparations just trade with them on equal terms, not provide aid with strings attached which is the current model.

[Repat Van]

Apr 22, 2022 12:53:17 GMT mids said:

Apr 22, 2022 12:31:04 GMT ootlg said:

The main issue in this case is religion and its attendant culture.

A side issue is outsiders deemed to be taking advantage of the host society's hard-earned benefits, often to its detriment: as in, I sweat blood all year round to feed the family and an outsider who's contributed nothing steps in and eats my food.

Immigration control is needed, no question about it. I suggest we start by paying reparation to those countries we've plundered, reparation paid by those who've most profited from it. And not paid in ways that can in turn be plundered by the leaders of those countries... complicated innit?

We've already given them trillions in aid. Plus the benefits of our culture, although granted they've not always taken very well. Democracy, legal systems, medicine, education etc etc. The list goes on and on. They should be paying us.

“Benefits of our culture” - LOLS! Democracy!! LOLS? Genocide, Colonialism, terror, oppression of native peoples, creation of false divisions and borders to stoke conflict merely for the financial benefit of European colonial powers is the furthest thing possible from “benefits”.

[Repat Van]

Apr 22, 2022 7:58:40 GMT perrykneeham said:

German Nazis flee to South America (continued).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-latin-america-61184479

I suppose it's a sauce for the goose scenario - if you don't like the country, leave. Go (back) to wherever you (didn't) come from.

Still, it does speak to a general distaste for mass immigration of Muslims and the failure of integration.

You’re got Muslims on your brain. You’re also probably never met a Muslim in your life and get all your knowledge on Muslim communities from the daily Mail.

But that also shows the arrogance of many Europeans and the coloniser / settler mentality.

It’s fine for THEM to migrate to the countries of others (taken their health risks with them) but god forbid people migrate to their own. You could not make it up! Also that man speaking with his wife…he sounds like he was transplanted to the modern era direct from Nazi Germany.

[perrykneeham]

Quite, quite mental.

[mids]

We also stopped the slave trade to a very large extent. You owe us big for that. It cost us a huge amount to buy the freedom of 100s of thousands of slaves (or was it millions?). Of course we don't actually want paying back. That's who we are.

[perrykneeham]

Although if the neo-uppity insist on restitution, I would be happy to restore them to their previous condition in Africa. It's not like many of them have made much progress anyway, so rehabilitation should be easy, albeit they'll have to learn to provide for themselves.