Sensible Government Policy

[flatandy]

Let's have a thread for those vanishingly rare moments when the UK government - whoever is in power - decides to do an actual sensible thing*.

Active Travel England are finally going to be consulted on all large planning applications, so nobody should build housing estates or shopping centers or sports stadia or music venues where people aren't able to walk to places, where bike routes aren't considered, where bikes can be locked up safely, and so on.

www.gov.uk/government/news/active-travel-england-to-be-consulted-on-all-large-planning-applications

* in the knowledge that, whoever's in power, will almost certainly implement it badly, but at least in theory it's intelligent

[perrykneeham]

The problem is that they've been trying this sort of thing since the glory days of municipal planning and the Festival of Britain. What seems to be missing is the ability for decent, middle class people yo imagine the drivers for people who live very different lives to them. They fondly imagine that everyone sees the benefits of vigorous outdoor exercise and/or has the time and resources to explore interesting sustainable transport modes.

[flatandy]

Ooh! Lovely and patronising. "Poor people don't want to walk or cycle to get where they're going. They're happy to wait for their once-every-two-hours bus service to get them anywhere."

[perrykneeham]

It's not my assumption, Marie Antionette.

[flatandy]

It is interesting that back in the day, from the eras you mock, housing estates did at least always have a ton of those little cut throughs that allowed people to walk between houses, rather than just driveways that connected to other driveways to other driveways which all are just designed to funnel drivers out on to major roads, as seems to happen more often these days.

[mids]

I wonder about this every time I see these big new housing estates getting built. Where will the cars go? They might build quarter of a mile of new access road but the surrounding roads are just the same.

Also, why oh why oh why does it take so long for anything to get built? There are some roadworks going on up the road from me and they've had a street blocked off at one end for at least 2 months now with the roadworks going on for at least 6 months. I think it's some sort of cycling infrastructure but why does it take so long? I blame over the top health and safety and the inability of the council to negotiate contracts. And immigration.

[flatandy]

I mostly blame over the top health and safety, particularly on bike and footpath building. They overspecify all the wrong things - they have to make sure footpaths can take the weight of a fire engine in case somebody's trainers catch fire. They spend ages doing all sorts of studies into the right kind of footpath markings and paintings so everyone knows who has rights of way, and then they have to get engineers and lawyers out to make sure they're all done right. Back in the day they'd have done something cheap and quick and shoddy. But, for almost all walkers and cyclists in almost all circumstances, cheap and quick and shoddy is perfectly good enough. I'd rather have a lot of poorly built (but sensibly designed and located) bike paths than have 250 yards of perfect bike path.

[perrykneeham]

I notice that dem yoot don't bother to carry bike locks with them and either abandon their bikes on the ground in front of the doorway of small shops or take their bikes in with them into larger shops. Similarly, I note that people have started just taking their dogs into Tesco with them, as a matter of right. Nobody ever seems to be willing to challenge people these days. This rot seems to have started with "emotional support dogs" which usually had some sort of jacket sating that's what they were (e.g. "my owner is a needy thingy, so probably best to just let this slide, eh?") but they seem to have dispensed with even this figleaf now. I suppose it's all part of that continuum which can be seen with parents letting their kids stand in shopping trolleys, wen they are clearly instructed not to do do: I don't much care if the snotty little dirtbags do fall out, but I do think we should at least consider the hygiene issue. Actually, it does annoy me in a petty way as it's just poor citizenship and parenting.

[perrykneeham]

It does seem like we're in a position of flux at the moment when it comes to transport: the nature of work, of shopping and even modes of transport are all undergoing huge transformation. It must be difficult to plan for. Are our town centres going to see the loss of so many shops that swathes of CBD commercial space is converted to accommodation? Will that, in turn, bring local shops back to serve the residents?  Will working from home mean that mainly the poorest will need to travel to work? Will driverless cars and electric bikes mean that most people can make their own travel arrangements with no need for mass transit schemes?

[flatandy]

e-bikes only help on days the weather's not crappy (but they should help a lot provided that businesses provide secure bike parking. Not sure how much driverless cars help, per se, but they could solve the parking problem by f**k**g off somewhere miles away.

No idea what's going to happen to commercial office space that nobody uses any more. There's a big risk it's going to be a monstrous huge collapse which will f**k the global economy when all the mortgages come due on all the properties that are only quarter-occupied. I hope a lot of it converts to residential space, where young people can afford to live in cities and that would bring in bars and restaurants. I have my doubts that high street shopping will ever be a big thing again (although it's better than Big Mall Shopping of course). It'll exist, but be small and niche, things that either can't be seen sensibly online (like art, say) or that need hands on interaction from competent staff (like bike mechanics or pharmacies). It'll even be desirable. But it won't exist in the volume that it existed 10 or 20 years ago, I don't think. It's just easier to buy online for lots of stuff.

[mids]

I'm hanging on for flying cars.

[flatandy]

That's dangerous. You should get inside.

[flatandy]

Oh. Sorry. You set "for", not "to".

[Repat Van]

Jun 5, 2023 12:07:04 GMT perrykneeham said:

The problem is that they've been trying this sort of thing since the glory days of municipal planning and the Festival of Britain. What seems to be missing is the ability for decent, middle class people yo imagine the drivers for people who live very different lives to them. They fondly imagine that everyone sees the benefits of vigorous outdoor exercise and/or has the time and resources to explore interesting sustainable transport modes.

I would imagine it’s the opposite. I imagine middle class people will just jump in a car and not think of the needs of those who cannot afford one and rely on their legs / public transport to get them from A to Z.

[Repat Van]

Jun 5, 2023 14:17:49 GMT perrykneeham said:

I notice that dem yoot don't bother to carry bike locks with them and either abandon their bikes on the ground in front of the doorway of small shops or take their bikes in with them into larger shops. Similarly, I note that people have started just taking their dogs into Tesco with them, as a matter of right. Nobody ever seems to be willing to challenge people these days. This rot seems to have started with "emotional support dogs" which usually had some sort of jacket sating that's what they were (e.g. "my owner is a needy thingy, so probably best to just let this slide, eh?") but they seem to have dispensed with even this figleaf now. I suppose it's all part of that continuum which can be seen with parents letting their kids stand in shopping trolleys, wen they are clearly instructed not to do do: I don't much care if the snotty little dirtbags do fall out, but I do think we should at least consider the hygiene issue. Actually, it does annoy me in a petty way as it's just poor citizenship and parenting.

I thought people stopped seeing the point of bike locks due to the rate of bicycle thefts and people just cutting the locks off. At least in London. You may as well just leave it propped up outside the shop as it’s just as likely to be stolen?

[Repat Van]

Jun 5, 2023 14:34:40 GMT flatandy said:

e-bikes only help on days the weather's not crappy (but they should help a lot provided that businesses provide secure bike parking. Not sure how much driverless cars help, per se, but they could solve the parking problem by f**k**g off somewhere miles away.

No idea what's going to happen to commercial office space that nobody uses any more. There's a big risk it's going to be a monstrous huge collapse which will f**k the global economy when all the mortgages come due on all the properties that are only quarter-occupied. I hope a lot of it converts to residential space, where young people can afford to live in cities and that would bring in bars and restaurants. I have my doubts that high street shopping will ever be a big thing again (although it's better than Big Mall Shopping of course). It'll exist, but be small and niche, things that either can't be seen sensibly online (like art, say) or that need hands on interaction from competent staff (like bike mechanics or pharmacies). It'll even be desirable. But it won't exist in the volume that it existed 10 or 20 years ago, I don't think. It's just easier to buy online for lots of stuff.

Also e-bikes only help if you can actually ride a bike. Some of us have forgotten….(that expression is a lie.)

[perrykneeham]

That might be right, but I think it's been a bit of a pipe-dream that folks will suddenly decide they want to walk or rude to work in the pissing rain. At least, the evidence of the past century suggests otherwise.

[perrykneeham]

Jun 5, 2023 16:43:53 GMT Repat Van said:

Jun 5, 2023 14:17:49 GMT perrykneeham said:

I notice that dem yoot don't bother to carry bike locks with them and either abandon their bikes on the ground in front of the doorway of small shops or take their bikes in with them into larger shops. Similarly, I note that people have started just taking their dogs into Tesco with them, as a matter of right. Nobody ever seems to be willing to challenge people these days. This rot seems to have started with "emotional support dogs" which usually had some sort of jacket sating that's what they were (e.g. "my owner is a needy thingy, so probably best to just let this slide, eh?") but they seem to have dispensed with even this figleaf now. I suppose it's all part of that continuum which can be seen with parents letting their kids stand in shopping trolleys, wen they are clearly instructed not to do do: I don't much care if the snotty little dirtbags do fall out, but I do think we should at least consider the hygiene issue. Actually, it does annoy me in a petty way as it's just poor citizenship and parenting.

I thought people stopped seeing the point of bike locks due to the rate of bicycle thefts and people just cutting the locks off. At least in London. You may as well just leave it propped up outside the shop as it’s just as likely to be stolen?

Nah, that might have been the case a while back but good modern locks are pretty good I think. It's laziness.

[Repat Van]

Jun 5, 2023 16:48:35 GMT perrykneeham said:

Jun 5, 2023 16:43:53 GMT Repat Van said:

I thought people stopped seeing the point of bike locks due to the rate of bicycle thefts and people just cutting the locks off. At least in London. You may as well just leave it propped up outside the shop as it’s just as likely to be stolen?

Nah, that might have been the case a while back but good modern locks are pretty good I think. It's laziness.

The videos I have seen just show thieves hacking off the locks with circular saws and making off with the bike. In B-road daylight to boot.

[happyhammerhead]

Sadly, Van is right (I don't mean sad because it's Van..)

Even the super-strong U-locks get busted. Locking up mine in town the other day, there were two very high quality locks discarded after being sawn through. The bikes probably belonged to late workers though. The town is too busy during the day.

Groups of kids leaving their bikes unlocked outside shops really is no big deal. The bikes are likely too rubbish to be worth nicking, except for a laugh. Also, one of them often stays out of the shop to keep watch, which is probably better than a lock.