dwad
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Post by dwad on Jan 29, 2009 10:54:47 GMT
I think you're confusing charlatans and snake oil salesmen with a practical joke tarrant. Had the jokers made millions out of this or something you might have a point but it was just a letter (not research or anything) to a journal, that was quoted a couple of times and as soon as somebody quoted it in a serious context they pulled it. I think we can keep our sense of humour and stop the actual charlatans at the same time.
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mids
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Post by mids on Jan 29, 2009 11:11:09 GMT
Errrr, hundreds of thousands of anorexia deaths?
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Post by tarrant on Jan 29, 2009 11:12:13 GMT
I think you're confusing charlatans and snake oil salesmen with a practical joke tarrant. Had the jokers made millions out of this or something you might have a point but it was just a letter (not research or anything) to a journal, that was quoted a couple of times and as soon as somebody quoted it in a serious context they pulled it. I think we can keep our sense of humour and stop the actual charlatans at the same time. I understand your point dawd and appreciate your motives. However, they used their professional status to mock. Your second point that you can stop the actual charlatans is clearly not the case. I doubt many in the medical community will yet accept that Anorexia Nervosa is a behavioural problem brought on by the notion that it exists! |
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dwad
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Post by dwad on Jan 29, 2009 11:32:17 GMT
However, they used their professional status to mock.
Sort of but they are mocking themselves - the profession and journal of which they are a part - they are a butt of the joke as much as the perpetrators.
I doubt many in the medical community will yet accept that Anorexia Nervosa is a behavioural problem brought on by the notion that it exists!
I think you are treading on dangerous ground with your anorexia example. Unlike celllo scrotum there is ample research into this. The origins of it may be chicken and egg as you describe, but now it exists there is no doubt that peolpe suffer from it and the causes in individuals can be many and varied. It's a recognised, researched psychiatric problem with triggers ranging from genetics to abuse.
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Post by tarrant on Jan 29, 2009 14:18:49 GMT
However, they used their professional status to mock.Sort of but they are mocking themselves - the profession and journal of which they are a part - they are a butt of the joke as much as the perpetrators. Sophestry! If I called someone a stupid spastic I'm actually insulting myself! If I murder my family I'm really harming myself. I doubt many in the medical community will yet accept that Anorexia Nervosa is a behavioural problem brought on by the notion that it exists!I think you are treading on dangerous ground with your anorexia example. Unlike celllo scrotum there is ample research into this. The origins of it may be chicken and egg as you describe, but now it exists there is no doubt that peolpe suffer from it and the causes in individuals can be many and varied. It's a recognised, researched psychiatric problem with triggers ranging from genetics to abuse. No the origins are the late 60s when the first case occured. In the late 70s it had a name but was still so rare that cases were of great interest to medical professionals. By the late 80s there were entire hospital wings filled only with these children. By the late 90s there were entire hospitals filled with these children. The condition rests on a basic feature of human metabolism. One that has been observed all over the world for centuaries. Namely, that when people choose not to eat, they go through a period of hunger which eventually disappears. After that, they have no appitite and they are said to be suffering from a condition called Anorexia. The nervosa bit is simply a reference to the neurotic origins. |
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mids
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Post by mids on Jan 29, 2009 14:30:18 GMT
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dwad
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Post by dwad on Jan 29, 2009 14:42:36 GMT
Sophestry!
If I called someone a stupid spastic I'm actually insulting myself!
Must... not .....make.... obvious.... joke.....
No the origins are the late 60s when the first case occured.
In the late 70s it had a name but was still so rare that cases were of great interest to medical professionals.
By the late 80s there were entire hospital wings filled only with these children.
By the late 90s there were entire hospitals filled with these children.
This is just made up? As mids says it was diagnosed in the late 19th century for one.
And even if what you said is true (which I must strenuously point out is not the case) should we apply the same to any psychiatric condition? Is schizophrenia made up?
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Post by tarrant on Jan 29, 2009 15:23:15 GMT
This is just made up? As mids says it was diagnosed in the late 19th century for one. And even if what you said is true (which I must strenuously point out is not the case) should we apply the same to any psychiatric condition? Is schizophrenia made up? The conditions described in the 19th centuries were in different circumstances. Mostly middle class women living unsatisfying lives. The cause was exactly the same, deliberately avoiding eating leading to a permanent loss of appetite. I appreciate that this might indicate earlier instances, but there is much more to this. During the 19th century Doctors diagnosed and treated many women of medium to high wealth levels for a variety of conditions. Another interesting one was variously names but often called frigid depression. The treatment was for the Doctor to massage the lady between her legs. An interesting side point here. The third electric device to be granted a patent was an electrical vibration stimulator. Eventually these became generally available and were sold as non-Doctor! Most of these conditions, and there were quite a number, disappeared as these societies progressed. The current situation has little relation to that in the 19th century. Anorexia Nervosa today almost exclusively affects young children, mostly girls, starting about the age of 11 or 12. It generally starts with the child refusing to eat. The parents, in a panic, assume that the child may be suffering from Anorexia Nervosa and rush to reassure the child. The child quickly learns that refusing to eat get them the affection and attention it craves. A more sensible approach is to allow the child to miss their meal or offer them something else. It is quite normal, during puberty, for children to go through periods when they may not be hungry. This is due to the enormous chemical changes occurring inside them. |
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dwad
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Post by dwad on Jan 29, 2009 15:28:13 GMT
Anorexia Nervosa today almost exclusively affects young children, mostly girls, starting about the age of 11 or 12.
It generally starts with the child refusing to eat. The parents, in a panic, assume that the child may be suffering from Anorexia Nervosa and rush to reassure the child.
The child quickly learns that refusing to eat get them the affection and attention it craves.
A more sensible approach is to allow the child to miss their meal or offer them something else. It is quite normal, during puberty, for children to go through periods when they may not be hungry. This is due to the enormous chemical changes occurring inside them.
I think you are oversimplifying a serious psychological condition that you just don't quite understand.
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mids
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Post by mids on Jan 29, 2009 15:31:15 GMT
It generally starts with the child refusing to eat. Wow. You don't say. |
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Post by tarrant on Jan 29, 2009 15:36:23 GMT
I think you are oversimplifying a serious psychological condition that you just don't quite understand. I understand considerably more than you may imagine. But there is little point in discussing what I understand. It is astonishing that so many seem to be allowing a group of people, many with questionable qualifications to dictate so much of our daily lives, even to the point of allowing our children to be starved to death and possibly allowing these people the legal right to end our lives when they are no longer deemed useful. I have found an entry for the first vibrator. women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article4032852.ecewww.wylde.com/history.htm |
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dwad
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Post by dwad on Jan 29, 2009 15:37:34 GMT
I think you are oversimplifying a serious psychological condition that you just don't quite understand. I understand considerably more than you may imagine. But there is little point in discussing what I understand. So we do have some common ground. |
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Post by omnipleasant on Jan 29, 2009 15:43:33 GMT
What causes anorexia?
Do the boffins have the faintest idea, or still just a bunch of theories?
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dwad
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Post by dwad on Jan 29, 2009 15:45:38 GMT
What causes anorexia? Do the boffins have the faintest idea, or still just a bunch of theories? They have some idea: What causes anorexia nervosa? Anorexia has no single cause. it seems that a genetic predisposition is necessary but not sufficient for development of the disorder. Twin and family studies,3 brain scans of affected and unaffected family members, and a current multicentre gene analysis support observations that anorexia is found in families with obsessive, perfectionist, and competitive traits, and possibly also autistic spectrum traits. Anorexia nervosa is precipitated as a coping mechanism against, for instance, developmental challenges, transitions, family conflicts, and academic pressures. Sexual abuse may precipitate anorexia but not more commonly than it would trigger other psychiatric disorders. The onset of puberty and adolescence are particularly common precipitants, but anorexia is also found without apparent precipitants in otherwise well functioning families. |
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Post by tarrant on Jan 29, 2009 15:46:25 GMT
Anyone who refuses to eat, for any reason will feel hungry for a time.
Eventually the hunger will mostly sibside and generally not return.
That condition is Anorexia.
Anorexia nervosa is a neurotic version of this where the inspiration for the initial refusal to eat is neurotic.
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Post by omnipleasant on Jan 29, 2009 15:51:07 GMT
Hm. On the one hand I do think we medicalise a lot of things that are, essentially, just individual personality traits.
And that bit you posted does seem to me to border on "made up disease" territory.
On the other hand, sh*t loads of people die, so it's clearly more complicated than just not eating.
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Post by tarrant on Jan 29, 2009 16:00:37 GMT
Until the period of the protestant reformation there was a condition called Anorexia Miraculous.
Young girls would literally starve to death believing their appetites had been taken by god.
Fundimentally exactly the same. Unfortunate young girls, growing up, seeking attention and finding a way to get it.
The phenomina of Anorexia has been observed since ancient times, mostly in people who fasted for long periods.
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dwad
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Post by dwad on Jan 29, 2009 16:00:46 GMT
Hm. On the one hand I do think we medicalise a lot of things that are, essentially, just individual personality traits. And that bit you posted does seem to me to border on "made up disease" territory. On the other hand, sh*t loads of people die, so it's clearly more complicated than just not eating. A lot of mental health could be trivialised as such. |
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mids
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Post by mids on Jan 29, 2009 16:04:13 GMT
The phenomina of Anorexia has been observed since ancient times, mostly in people who fasted for long periods. By ancient times, do you mean the 1960s which is when you previously said the first case occured? |
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Post by tarrant on Jan 29, 2009 16:06:54 GMT
Fundimentally there are 4 mental health conditions.
Disorders of perception.
Disorders of mood.
Disorders of functioning.
Disorders of brain chemistry.
The first 2 have largely been managed with modern medicines. There is still a long way to go. But most people affected by these 2 can lead fairly normal lives.
The 4th is a matter of individual management on a case by case basis.
The 3rd is a gold mine for people with questionable qualifications to discover new illnesses and develop expensive treatments.
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