flatandy
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Post by flatandy on Apr 15, 2009 10:16:53 GMT
Not deliberately, Dwad. I think it's unavoidable that people will get some advantages thanks to their parents' wealth. I think there's no reason for it to be enshrined in education too, when the state provides almost all the education for everyone in the country anyway.
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flatandy
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Post by flatandy on Apr 15, 2009 10:19:57 GMT
Not suddenly, Vania. Nothing happens suddenly.
I'm not disparaging the other 93% - I was at a half-decent school because some of those 93% care. But I can tell you that my local school in Kennington when I lived there would have been a fcuk of a lot better for the kids from the Lambeth Walk estates is Oliver Letwin and Paddy Ashdown (both of whom lived within a minute's walk of it) were sending their kids to those schools. I'm pretty sure my local state schools in the Tooting/Wandsworth area would be better if all the Nappy Valley mums hadn't opted out.
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dwad
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Post by dwad on Apr 15, 2009 10:31:12 GMT
Not deliberately, Dwad. I think it's unavoidable that people will get some advantages thanks to their parents' wealth. I think there's no reason for it to be enshrined in education too, when the state provides almost all the education for everyone in the country anyway. But why education and not the others?
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dwad
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Post by dwad on Apr 15, 2009 10:32:03 GMT
Not suddenly, Vania. Nothing happens suddenly. I'm not disparaging the other 93% - I was at a half-decent school because some of those 93% care. But I can tell you that my local school in Kennington when I lived there would have been a fcuk of a lot better for the kids from the Lambeth Walk estates is Oliver Letwin and Paddy Ashdown (both of whom lived within a minute's walk of it) were sending their kids to those schools. I'm pretty sure my local state schools in the Tooting/Wandsworth area would be better if all the Nappy Valley mums hadn't opted out. This is certainly true - I am currently looking at schools in Wandsworth... the nicer part though.
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flatandy
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Post by flatandy on Apr 15, 2009 10:32:16 GMT
Because the state controls education. It's controllable. It's already provided by the state for almost everybody.
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Post by vania on Apr 15, 2009 10:35:12 GMT
But the state should only control that education provided by itself. It doesn't control the private sector, so if it seeks to exert it's control over this domaine (by banning it) then it should be straight forward to ban all the other things we mentioned.
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Post by cobblers on Apr 15, 2009 10:37:17 GMT
The state controls standards and provides free education. What you are proposing is legislating on what services people may pay money for.
Very dictatorial and threatening to the freedom of the individual. I'd prefer to be free and destitute than rich and the property of the state, which is why politics like yours must be opposed vigourously.
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dwad
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Post by dwad on Apr 15, 2009 10:38:21 GMT
Because the state controls education. It's controllable. It's already provided by the state for almost everybody. As are health, music and sports facilities for children.
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flatandy
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Post by flatandy on Apr 15, 2009 10:39:01 GMT
I don't think that's true at all, Vania.
The state controls 0% of peoples' holidays, so it would be a bit weird for it to try and impose there. It controls 93% of education, so it is an obvious place where government interference on a very small percentage of the population can massively equalise the opportunities available, and improve the quality of education in a great many state comprehensives - particularly in big urban centres where there's a greater mix of rich and poor, and far greater opt-out by the educated, wealth and engaged.
I can see a good case on healthcare
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Post by cobblers on Apr 15, 2009 10:46:17 GMT
I can't understand why you don't prize freedom and put all your faith in the just wielding of power by the state. Where and when has this ever happened?
This is tyranny and of course within this system the very privilege you sought to stamp out would appear in another form.
I can't believe people still don't get this.
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flatandy
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Post by flatandy on Apr 15, 2009 10:50:11 GMT
I prize freedom. I think freedom isn't properly applied to children anyway. They have no choice, they don't participate in the market. They are relying on their parents as a proxy.
I accept that even with obligatory school attendance in a state school, wealthy parents would find ways of offering additional tuition. That's inevitable. That doesn't mean the state shouldn't pursue ways of making sure everyone gets the best education possible.
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dwad
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Post by dwad on Apr 15, 2009 10:51:15 GMT
II can see a good case on healthcare Surely sports clubs as well?
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Post by cobblers on Apr 15, 2009 11:21:03 GMT
I prize freedom. I think freedom isn't properly applied to children anyway. They have no choice, they don't participate in the market. They are relying on their parents as a proxy. I accept that even with obligatory school attendance in a state school, wealthy parents would find ways of offering additional tuition. That's inevitable. That doesn't mean the state shouldn't pursue ways of making sure everyone gets the best education possible. No you don't. Prize freedom I mean. There's nothing to stop the state pursuing better state education without curtailing people's ability to use their wealth, however 'justly' or 'injustly' obtained, to pay for whatever services they wish. You want the state to step in to dictate what two contracting parties may contract to do in pursuit of a dubious political ideal.
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Post by vania on Apr 15, 2009 17:49:46 GMT
"That doesn't mean the state shouldn't pursue ways of making sure everyone gets the best education possible."
So why the need to ban private schools. Can the state not just do this anyway? It's not about the best education possible it's about the same education because the state isn't capable of providing the best education possible.
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flatandy
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Post by flatandy on Apr 15, 2009 17:58:27 GMT
Because banning private schools would improve the quality of education for the other 93%. It means the best possible education won't happen for the one pupil who could get it; but it means the best broad education for the 100%
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Scooby Do
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Post by Scooby Do on Apr 15, 2009 18:26:25 GMT
Because banning private schools would improve the quality of education for the other 93%. It means the best possible education won't happen for the one pupil who could get it; but it means the best broad education for the 100%
Why would banning Private schools improve the other 93% by any measurable difference?
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flatandy
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Post by flatandy on Apr 15, 2009 19:19:19 GMT
Read up-thread, but basically it would rather help schools if all the ministers, MPs, local councillors, people who worked for the authorities had kids in schools, and if all the people who had good educations and wealth and so on were actually engaged in improving those schools because their kids were there. As is well noted, schools in areas where lots of posh/rich/educated parents send their kids to state schools are much better.
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Scooby Do
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Post by Scooby Do on Apr 15, 2009 19:30:53 GMT
You're draming FA. It doesn't work like that. never has, never will.
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Post by puffin on Apr 15, 2009 20:38:20 GMT
Until the state can control the amount of interest, time and personal dedication that parents give to the education of their children there isn't a snowball's chance in hell of educational equality.
Results are better in schools in 'better' areas because parents who have the sort of ethos that drove them to do well themselves are also the same parents who care about how well their children do...and they know that a good education and hard work is the key so they support the work of the school.
Think of a way of implanting that ethos into all parents and you may have a start on equality in education. Until that wondrous day parents who care about the progress of their kids won't want them to be in classes with the kids of parents who couldn't give a scooby. (sorry scooby)
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Scooby Do
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Post by Scooby Do on Apr 15, 2009 21:35:30 GMT
No worries Puffin.
I've said it a hundred times, and I'll no doubt say it several more.
Biggest problems in schools start in the home with the parents.
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