VikingHumpingWitch
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"My philosophy in life is keep dry and keep away from children. I got it from a matchbox."
Posts: 8,018
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Jan 21, 2009 12:50:31 GMT
who then suddenly turn up fighting in afghanistan, funny that! Look, I'm not being snide but you really should have a look into this before coming out with stuff like that. Lots of people weren't even picked up in Afghanistan, let alone fighting there. I'm quite sure there are properly dodgy terrorist people in there. But there are also people there who are not guilty of anything connected with terrorism and in any case all these people should be charged or released. This is a basic principle of law that has been in operation in this country, and used as a model around the world, since the 13th century. I heartily recommend reading Taking Liberties, or watching the film (I haven't seen that but I'm sure it's very enlightening). You will end up hating the UK government even more but I guess you can cope with that. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2009 12:54:35 GMT
Some of them are psychiatric patients now. Innocent men destroyed mentally. If you can condone that you've got a screw loose.
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Post by reverend on Jan 21, 2009 12:55:05 GMT
dont get so serious Vox, I have no illusions over gitmo, I'm simply not that naive to believe the crap spouted about it, simple fact is men released from gitmo because they couldnt charge them have been found fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, being unable to prove culpability in a court does'nt always mean thier innocent!
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VikingHumpingWitch
New Member
"My philosophy in life is keep dry and keep away from children. I got it from a matchbox."
Posts: 8,018
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Jan 21, 2009 13:01:17 GMT
men released from gitmo because they couldnt charge them have been found fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan Link? I appreciate that there are probably greater difficulties proving links with terrorism than with other crimes. But the idea of allowing an indefinite period of time, spanning bloody years, to detain someone is Completely Wrong. Particularly when the evidence given for picking them up in the first place can be incredibly flimsy - someone's say so, or the fact that they at some point knew someone who had a connection to something terroristy (or in some cases, confessed to such a connection under torture and later retracted it). If there wasn't anything dodgy about Guantanamo, the US would not have had to invent a new definition of torture and wouldn't have to have put the thing off US soil to avoid breaking US law. Honestly, it's FUBAR. |
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Post by reverend on Jan 21, 2009 13:06:45 GMT
www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1005051/Ex-Guantanamo-detainees-'resume-terror-fight' you can have a look at that, theres plenty of reports on the matter, is not breaking news or anything! What I found more convincing was a guy caught by 2 para in Helmand was a gitmo detainee, he didnt even try to deny it when he was fingered by one of his mates, and I had that from a guy I live near in 2 para who captured him!
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VikingHumpingWitch
New Member
"My philosophy in life is keep dry and keep away from children. I got it from a matchbox."
Posts: 8,018
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Jan 21, 2009 13:12:40 GMT
That's just even more scary. So we've got innocent people being held and guilty ones "believed" to be going back to fight (assuming we can trust things like "intelligence reports" which I find harder to trust these days than I used to). Not to mention that if I'd been held without charge in the Gitmo conditions for years I might feel rather more antagonistic towards the US than I had done previously.
Where do we draw the line? Is it acceptable to hold 100s of innocent people in order to get a small number of terrorists? What would be an acceptable innocent : terrorists ratio? If we destroy hundreds of lives to save just one life is that worthwhile etc and so on?
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Post by reverend on Jan 21, 2009 13:17:18 GMT
all i will say is I'm glad i'm not the one who has to make the decision where that line gets drawn!
when it comes to terrorism maybe 100 incarcerated innocents is better than a thousand dead innocents, unless your one of the innocent incarcerated that is, I find myself split on the issue, however the amount of usefull intel gitmo provided tends to tip me in it's favour, maybe!!
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VikingHumpingWitch
New Member
"My philosophy in life is keep dry and keep away from children. I got it from a matchbox."
Posts: 8,018
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Jan 21, 2009 13:22:53 GMT
all i will say is I'm glad i'm not the one who has to make the decision where that line gets drawn! when it comes to terrorism maybe 100 incarcerated innocents is better than a thousand dead innocents, unless your one of the innocent incarcerated that is, I find myself split on the issue, however the amount of usefull intel gitmo provided tends to tip me in it's favour, maybe!! This is another thing - how much useful intel has come out of it (genuine question)? These things tend to be kept under the cloak of secrecy, and I find it hard to accept the "Lots of stuff it's very useful but we can't tell you about it" line when it comes from a government with a blatant vested interest in convincing us that this is a necessary thing. How much info was extracted from torture (or "not torture" if we use the new US definition as opposed to the internationally accepted one)? It's not the most reliable method of getting accurate info. |
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Post by tarrant on Jan 21, 2009 17:43:54 GMT
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Post by kjetski on Jan 22, 2009 1:29:11 GMT
"Mr Obama emphasised the idea of respect for justice and the rights of the individual, rejecting "as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"." Wish we had one of him in Britain. Gitmo is a tribute to freedom, love, flowers, democracy and the American dream. Why anyone would want to close "Club Gitmo" to terrorist membership is beyond me. Everyone (Brit) that whinged about the evils of Gitmo should now be willing to take care of one terrorist. After all they are oppressed. |
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Post by newyorker on Jan 22, 2009 1:30:27 GMT
"Mr Obama emphasised the idea of respect for justice and the rights of the individual, rejecting "as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"." Wish we had one of him in Britain. Gitmo is a tribute to freedom, love, flowers, democracy and the American dream. Why anyone would want to close "Club Gitmo" to terrorist membership is beyond me. Everyone (Brit) that whinged about the evils of Gitmo should now be willing to take care of one terrorist. After all they are oppressed.  |
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Post by kjetski on Jan 22, 2009 1:34:06 GMT
men released from gitmo because they couldnt charge them have been found fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan Link? I appreciate that there are probably greater difficulties proving links with terrorism than with other crimes. But the idea of allowing an indefinite period of time, spanning bloody years, to detain someone is Completely Wrong. Particularly when the evidence given for picking them up in the first place can be incredibly flimsy - someone's say so, or the fact that they at some point knew someone who had a connection to something terroristy (or in some cases, confessed to such a connection under torture and later retracted it). If there wasn't anything dodgy about Guantanamo, the US would not have had to invent a new definition of torture and wouldn't have to have put the thing off US soil to avoid breaking US law. Honestly, it's FUBAR. Since you love the terrorists so much, take em all home. The inmates of Gitmo are there for a reason. The are non-uniformed combatants that got lucky enough to be captrured. We treat them far better than their erstwhile comrades ever did. sh*t, most of them actually gained weight, recieve good food, and are well treated. Next time our heros in uniform will simply cut their heads off with a dull saw and put the videos on You-tube... In the meantime Euro-trash vegans like you are a threat to world peace. |
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Post by puffin on Jan 22, 2009 1:37:09 GMT
Nah... America collected them up, America can take care of them.
Try them according to American rules and American law in an American Court and if they are found guilty imprison them , if not set them free.
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Post by tarrant on Jan 22, 2009 1:38:53 GMT
simple fact is men released from gitmo because they couldnt charge them have been found fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, It could equally be argued that peaceful, decent men, abducted and taken to Guantanimo, tortured, heald in isolation, unable to contact their families who might depend upon them for their income and protection might, after finally leaving, after several years, be so radicalised they would decided to take up the fight. If I were treated in the way some of these people have I would have to try very hard not to feel that way. |
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Post by newyorker on Jan 22, 2009 1:44:36 GMT
simple fact is men released from gitmo because they couldnt charge them have been found fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, It could equally be argued that peaceful, decent men, abducted and taken to Guantanimo, tortured, heald in isolation, unable to contact their families who might depend upon them for their income and protection might, after finally leaving, after several years, be so radicalised they would decided to take up the fight. If I were treated in the way some of these people have I would have to try very hard not to feel that way. Peaceful decent men? tarrant, you have to get off of crack. Seriously. |
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Post by Charles Martel on Jan 22, 2009 4:51:53 GMT
Lest it be forgotten it was a Democratic President who issued Executive Order 9066 that interred all persons of Japanese descent during World War II. Muslims have better pay attention. If things get too bad, and there was another massive terrorist strike against the US on par with 9/11 or worse, Obama may be forced to dust off FDR's Executive Order from the archives, photocopy it, scribble out the word "Japenese" and insert "Muslim" before re-submitting it.
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VikingHumpingWitch
New Member
"My philosophy in life is keep dry and keep away from children. I got it from a matchbox."
Posts: 8,018
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Jan 22, 2009 9:32:27 GMT
Link? I appreciate that there are probably greater difficulties proving links with terrorism than with other crimes. But the idea of allowing an indefinite period of time, spanning bloody years, to detain someone is Completely Wrong. Particularly when the evidence given for picking them up in the first place can be incredibly flimsy - someone's say so, or the fact that they at some point knew someone who had a connection to something terroristy (or in some cases, confessed to such a connection under torture and later retracted it). If there wasn't anything dodgy about Guantanamo, the US would not have had to invent a new definition of torture and wouldn't have to have put the thing off US soil to avoid breaking US law. Honestly, it's FUBAR. Since you love the terrorists so much, take em all home. The inmates of Gitmo are there for a reason. The are non-uniformed combatants that got lucky enough to be captrured. We treat them far better than their erstwhile comrades ever did. sh*t, most of them actually gained weight, recieve good food, and are well treated. Next time our heros in uniform will simply cut their heads off with a dull saw and put the videos on You-tube... In the meantime Euro-trash vegans like you are a threat to world peace. You, sir, are amusing in your ignorance. This pleases me, keep posting. |
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Post by lawrence on Jan 22, 2009 19:28:29 GMT
They should have proceeded with military trials years ago. Only thing to do now is return them to their countries of origin or hold them for trial in a US courtroom.
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Post by tarrant on Jan 22, 2009 20:05:04 GMT
I doubt there was ever any intention to have any sort of trials.
Bush and co walked into a deep hole dug for them by false intel.
They undoubtedly thought they were about to uncover some massive world wide conspiracy. What emerged was a few idiots with stanley knives and a bit of experience with a video game.
After that, it was just a matter of keeping it all going until they could pass the buck to someone else.
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Post by vania on Jan 22, 2009 20:08:25 GMT
Woah, I'm in agreement with Lawrence?!
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