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Post by tarrant on Feb 2, 2009 17:30:44 GMT
The Nazi party is banned in Germany.
Duh!
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avieder
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Post by avieder on Feb 2, 2009 20:40:29 GMT
You are condemning blindly every action we take. In the light of law, ethics, the facts, the entire world condemns: I was talking to Tarrant, not to you Bertrus. The difference between disagreeing and condemning is the ability to answer and / or discuss issue that there is disagreement upon. I already know that Bertrus is incapable of discussing anything except regurgitating used up slogans and lies. If Tarants wants to pick up a subject to discuss I shall try to the best of my ability to answer. |
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Post by tarrant on Feb 2, 2009 20:52:47 GMT
Nice word you found "disagreeing" - That is NOT what you are doing. You are condemning blindly every action we take. Not even trying to rationalize the hypocrisy and lies that are spread by Hamas. The hypocricy and wickedness of Hamas is not in dispute. We agree on that, I would hope completely. There is little point in reciting any further criticism as a declaration of faith, so to speak. The actions of Israel are intolerable simply because they are not aimed at those responsible. The innocent Israeli lives that have been lost are a tragedy. Those affected will feel genuinely angry and resentful. Many of them, we know are driven to often extream acts. I cannot say how I would react in their position. I would hope I would have the strength to forgive. I fear I would seek revenge. The innocent Palestinians will feel exactly the same. That can only fuel the ranks of the terrorists. That is the lesson of Ireland. |
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avieder
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Post by avieder on Feb 2, 2009 21:30:34 GMT
Nice word you found "disagreeing" - That is NOT what you are doing. You are condemning blindly every action we take. Not even trying to rationalize the hypocrisy and lies that are spread by Hamas. The hypocricy and wickedness of Hamas is not in dispute. We agree on that, I would hope completely. There is little point in reciting any further criticism as a declaration of faith, so to speak. The actions of Israel are intolerable simply because they are not aimed at those responsible. The innocent Israeli lives that have been lost are a tragedy. Those affected will feel genuinely angry and resentful. Many of them, we know are driven to often extream acts. I cannot say how I would react in their position. I would hope I would have the strength to forgive. I fear I would seek revenge. The innocent Palestinians will feel exactly the same. That can only fuel the ranks of the terrorists. That is the lesson of Ireland. You claim that the fact is "The actions of Israel are intolerable simply because they are not aimed at those responsible." And I say that the exact opposite is the truth: The actions Israel took and takes to save harmless those that are not responsible are beyond anything that anybody ever did. The results are that indeed very few real innocents were hurt. All of them because they were being used by Hamas as you know what. Others were massacred directly by Hamas as you probably already know for not supporting Hamas or for supporting Fatah or on suspicion of aiding Israel. Now, if you are referring to the blockade then you may have a point but that is also the result of the war situation that is caused and maintained by Hamas (Iran). That blockade has an affect on the Israeli side too as workers cannot come, goods cannot be sold or bought etc. Humanitarian aid is not blocked by Israel but, as far as I know, it is confiscated by Hamas and distributed according to their whimes.... |
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Post by bertrus2 on Feb 2, 2009 21:41:44 GMT
You have the mindset of the Holocaust denier, Abraham. None of the following are in dispute. They are denied by the perpetrators. That's the usual thing with criminals.
fanatical campaign to conquer the Promised Land for the Chosen People
the illegal settlements
open door for all Jews exclusively, irrespective of personal qualities or rights
refusal to allow Palestinian refugees to return to their family homes
demolition of Palestinan homes
excution without trial of Palestinians
arrest without charge of thousands of Palestinians
war crimes and crimes against humanity
theft of land, water and other resources
destruction of schools, hospitals, the Gaza airport and many other facilities
building walls to enclose and starve Palestinians.
many deaths and injuries
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Post by tarrant on Feb 2, 2009 22:12:39 GMT
And I say that the exact opposite is the truth: The actions Israel took and takes to save harmless those that are not responsible are beyond anything that anybody ever did. The results are that indeed very few real innocents were hurt. All of them because they were being used by Hamas as you know what. Others were massacred directly by Hamas as you probably already know for not supporting Hamas or for supporting Fatah or on suspicion of aiding Israel. .... Very few? |
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lala
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Post by lala on Feb 2, 2009 22:15:13 GMT
In the 2006 Palestinian parliamentary elections, the Change and Reform Party (the Hamas political wing) got 74 seats, giving it an outright majority and the right to replace Fatah (45 seats) as the government of the Palestinian territories (East Jerusalem, West Bank,Gaza). What, in your recollection (pretty hazy, I should imagine) prevented the peaceful transition to power? You've made a false connection between what I was saying about the Nazis in the 1930s, who atained power inspite of their lack of popular support, and Hamas. There's no need to go around pretending I said things when I didn't. Who are you, Cobblers? Though if the tactics described by Donald MacIntyre int he extract above have been prevalent, perhaps their democratic rise to power left something to be desired. Incidentally, if the penalty for the electorate 'getting it wrong' was the murder of your family by a foreign invasion force, you might be a bit confused about your voting intentions next time around. Again, you're inventing something I never said. Pray desist. My point was that Hamas are eradicating opposition in the Gaza strip. I've pointed out that the Palestinians are more likely to support Hamas if Israel insists on lobbiong missles and tank shells into Gaza, on several occasions. After all, the reverse has already been demonstrated - Isrealis are ready to countenance the slaughter of Palestinians because Hamas bombarded the their settlements. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander, and all that. |
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Post by bertrus2 on Feb 2, 2009 22:19:32 GMT
the Germans never voted the Nazis to power again The Germans never voted the Nazis to power in the first place. In any case, this argument would mean that the electorate always deserved exactly what it got as a result of the actions of an elected government. This is the Osama Bin Laden argument for the destruction of the twin towers. |
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Post by bertrus2 on Feb 2, 2009 22:30:12 GMT
lala,
I'm sorry if I misundertood your argument. However, I do suspect you don't know enough to comment sensibly.
For example
Though if the tactics described by Donald MacIntyre int he extract above have been prevalent, perhaps their democratic rise to power left something to be desired.
The elections of January 2006 where Hamas gained an outright majority of seats, were recognized as fair by international observers. The current situation is not democratic. Tactics of intimidation and coercion by Hamas and Fatah are the result of democracy being destroyed by the US/ Israel (aided and abetted by the EU).
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Post by Marshall on Feb 2, 2009 23:05:02 GMT
Funny how with all the death and destruction in Gaza we've heard about for the last few weeks, Hamas has declared it a "victory".
That should clue some people in to their real motives.
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Post by tarrant on Feb 2, 2009 23:13:26 GMT
It's motives are obvious.
Sadly, they don't seem to be far removed from the Zionists.
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lala
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Post by lala on Feb 3, 2009 0:09:41 GMT
This obviously works, as the Germans never voted the Nazis to power again since the war, having "got it (terribly) wrong", and had their families murdered (10 million dead Germans in WW2, millions more forcibly expelled from eastern pre-war Germany) by "invading" Soviet, British, American and Canadian troops. They never voted them into power in the first place. Hitler and his rabble were sneaked into power by jealous and naive politicians, trying to block each other through buying the support of the Nazis. By the time Hitler was made Chancellor, Nazi support was ebbing, which is why they were thought a 'safe' option in the short term. THe similaritiy with Hamas is that once they had gained precedence, they started to wipe out any opposition, to secure their hold on power. So the Communists were outlawed first, other parties were soon proscribed as well, the people who had helped Hitler into the Chancellorship were stripped of power or executed. This is similar to what is happening in Gaza. |
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lala
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Post by lala on Feb 3, 2009 0:10:51 GMT
Oh, see Bert made this point as well. Ach well, if we repeat ourselves enough the message might get through.
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lala
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Post by lala on Feb 3, 2009 0:28:59 GMT
The elections of January 2006 where Hamas gained an outright majority of seats, were recognized as fair by international observers. The current situation is not democratic. Tactics of intimidation and coercion by Hamas and Fatah are the result of democracy being destroyed by the US/ Israel (aided and abetted by the EU). Bit of trickery there, Bert. I'm sure you know that while Hamas won a majority of seats, their percentage of the vote was only slightly higher than Fatah's (440K to 410K) and was not a majority of the votes cast - they got 44.5% of the total vote, coincidentally, pretty much in line with the Nazi's best results. Which doesn't make what you said untrue, just not the full picture. Hamas gained outright power through electoral mathematics, not popular support. Which makes the comparison with the Nazi's more apt. Or perhaps with Bush II. However, this is all a digression. WHat I'm carping about is the hysterical bullshit put out by idiots like Yvonne Ridely and the fools who bleat, "WE're all Hamas now." Bullshit. We might say, "We're all Palestinians now," but conflating the terrorists of Hamas with the Palestinians is to do exactly what Hamas want. We should be making a clear distinction between the Palestinians, and Hamas. |
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avieder
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Post by avieder on Feb 3, 2009 10:49:43 GMT
And I say that the exact opposite is the truth: The actions Israel took and takes to save harmless those that are not responsible are beyond anything that anybody ever did. The results are that indeed very few real innocents were hurt. All of them because they were being used by Hamas as you know what. Others were massacred directly by Hamas as you probably already know for not supporting Hamas or for supporting Fatah or on suspicion of aiding Israel. .... Very few? Yes. very few if any. You must consider that: a) Israel targeted only Hamas sites (rocket launching, headquarters, workshops, Hamas activists etc.) b) Israel forewarned all the people at the targeted sites (except the leaders who are on "constant alert"). even if they are Hamas fighters. c) During the fighting itself,non fighters could walk freely, unharmed by Israel. Therefore any "non combatants" who were hurt had ample opportunity to save themselves even if their houses were used by Hamas. As evidence is now surfacing it was Hamas fighters who killed and maimed Arab civilians as I explained. Actually what we had in Gaza is the most moral army in the world fighting the most immoral terror organization. |
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