VikingHumpingWitch
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Feb 3, 2009 11:18:33 GMT
Echoing Mids. The entire principal of Dawrinian evolution is chance mutation which very rarely creates an advantagous change and eventually leads to new species. Well not necessarily, the same species simply develops characteristics that better fit it to its habitat. Didn't realise Mids had got it so spectacularly wrong earlier, I'll have to look for that... |
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Post by tarrant on Feb 3, 2009 11:34:43 GMT
Yes.
But the mechanism for those developments is chance mutation of geans which rarely produce advantagous changes in the organism.
Over the eons of time, these advantagous changes accumulate to create a new species.
Chance is the mechanism.
Prof Dawkins is wrong when he says chance plays no part. Chance is the part.
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VikingHumpingWitch
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Feb 3, 2009 11:41:39 GMT
But that's not natural selection. Natural selection is the process of creatures with favourable mutations hanging on longer than those without. It's not the random mutation bit.
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mids
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Post by mids on Feb 3, 2009 11:48:12 GMT
Yes. But the mechanism for those developments is chance mutation of geans which rarely produce advantagous changes in the organism. Over the eons of time, these advantagous changes accumulate to create a new species. Chance is the mechanism. Prof Dawkins is wrong when he says chance plays no part. Chance is the part. That's wrong. Chance is not the mechanism. Natural selection is the mechanism by which life evolves and the clue that natural selection does not operate by chance is in the word selection. Natural selection takes genetic variation and sorts out which species will be successful and which won't according to what best fits a particular environment. |
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Post by tarrant on Feb 3, 2009 11:51:12 GMT
creatures with favourable mutations ...... How do those variations occur? Chance is not the mechanism. Natural selection is the mechanism by which life evolves and the clue that natural selection does not operate by chance is in the word selection. Natural selection takes genetic variation and sorts out which species will be successful and which won't according to what best fits a particular environment. How do those genetic variations occur? |
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VikingHumpingWitch
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Feb 3, 2009 11:54:31 GMT
OK, let's put it another way. Random mutations occur by chance. Natural selection is the non-random, non-chance related process by which favourable (to the habitat) mutations are retained within the species.
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mids
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Post by mids on Feb 3, 2009 11:57:11 GMT
Yes. Prof Dawkins is wrong when he says chance plays no part. Chance is the part. Except that he didn't say that. |
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Post by tarrant on Feb 3, 2009 12:08:29 GMT
OK, let's put it another way. Random mutations occur by chance. Natural selection is the non-random, non-chance related process by which favourable (to the habitat) mutations are retained within the species. No. Natural selection is the manner by which the environment selects those mutations which are best able to survive. The mutations are the mechanism of the change. The mutations occur by chance. Chance is the mechanism of evolution. Natural selection occurs because of the mutations Yes. Prof Dawkins is wrong when he says chance plays no part. Chance is the part. Except that he didn't say that. According to the Telegraph report, he did! |
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VikingHumpingWitch
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Feb 3, 2009 12:11:56 GMT
Exactly - natural selection is the antithesis of chance, because it carefully selects the mutations which will be preserved and which will die out. If it was chance, we'd have species walking around with wonky legs and stuff because chance dictated that mutation happened and survived. Because wonky legs aren't actually very useful, natural selection specifically eliminates them. Not chance.
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Post by tarrant on Feb 3, 2009 12:16:00 GMT
So, what causes Natural Selection?
What is the mechanism of natural selection?
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Post by bertrus2 on Feb 3, 2009 12:16:08 GMT
What the poll actually indicated gives a slightly less terrifying picture of the ignorance and stupidity (despite all that education) of the British public than the journalistic scare story. But not much. The study (Theos/ComRes) found that 17% of people agreed with the statement that “humans were created by God some time within the last 10,000 years”, a statement consistent with the Young Earth Creation (YEC) position, although one that could also include old earth creationism.
When respondents were subsequently presented with an explicit definition of Young Earth Creationism (“the idea that God created the world sometime in the last 10,000 years”), 11% said they thought this was “definitely true” and 21% “probably true”, suggesting that the YEC group, like any other, comprises a smaller number of convinced adherents and a larger fringe who are less secure in their convictions.tinyurl.com/cp5rla |
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yord
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Post by yord on Feb 3, 2009 12:23:17 GMT
"What is the mechanism of natural selection? "
intent
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VikingHumpingWitch
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Feb 3, 2009 12:25:00 GMT
Natural selection is the mechanism. Traits are preserved or eliminated by design, not chance.
I can't believe I, me, am explaining Science to someone. I will be looking out the window for a train of blind people being led by David Blunkett.
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Post by tarrant on Feb 3, 2009 12:27:11 GMT
Natural selection is the mechanism. Traits are preserved or eliminated by design, not chance. . Whose design? |
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VikingHumpingWitch
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Feb 3, 2009 12:29:20 GMT
Its own. That is its point.
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Post by tarrant on Feb 3, 2009 12:31:35 GMT
No. If there is a design, as you seem to believe, what created the design?
How did the complexity of contemporary life develop from the simply pieces of inorganic nucleic acid molecules?
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yord
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Post by yord on Feb 3, 2009 12:35:48 GMT
"If there is a design, as you seem to believe, what created the design?"
intent
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VikingHumpingWitch
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Feb 3, 2009 12:36:53 GMT
The design is to root out traits which are less useful and retain the ones that will help the species to survive. You could use the word purpose instead if you like.
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yord
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Post by yord on Feb 3, 2009 12:38:19 GMT
only if you know the purpose
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Post by flatandy on Feb 3, 2009 12:41:15 GMT
Good grief.
Tarrant - do you really think the chance mutation of genes is the mechanism?
If so, you're having problems with language. The mechanism is natural selection.
What it selects on is from the chance mutation of genes.
But the mutation of genes is something that happens at random because they're imperfect.
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