As a "None believer"

[avieder]

Mar 23, 2009 21:53:01 GMT bertrus2 said:

Try this link for size, dear lier.

It's very convincing, if true. However, allegations by one of the parties to the libel suits does not amount to proof of the facts.

As I said the fact that it was a fraud was already established and the French TV even apologized to the reporter (but not to the families and victims on both sides who were hurt by the aftermaths of that liable)
The question that has yet to be settled concerns the responsibility of the network.

[peakman]

Mar 23, 2009 21:56:48 GMT avieder said:

Now, lets reurn to the subject of this interesting thread:

I say that atheism is simply a state of ignorance.

And I can add that an atheist is not one who does not believe in god but one who believes that he is his own god.

This "God thing" always gets people going, and fighting. My god is greater than your god etc, although this seems to be something unique to the followers of Islam, Judaism and of course Christians, all of whome follow the same "God". Strange.

I say that atheism is simply a state of ignorance. There is no God, therefore an atheist is correct. His or her, "Own God"?...Still a God, a self centred one perhaps but still a god ...A "part" of God? But that means there is a God ,..not an atheist thing...Are we ourselves collectively, "God"?...After all, are we not told that if we wish to serve God, we must serve one another...Is the big problem just that we are all in ignorance of just who we really are?..Does the atheist (and not only the atheist) need to go beyond his or her belief, or none belief, as the case may be...Is there something we all need to wake up to. Do any of us need religion anymore?..Or does the buck actually stop with us?

[avieder]

Mar 26, 2009 17:05:42 GMT peakman said:

Mar 23, 2009 21:56:48 GMT avieder said:

Now, lets reurn to the subject of this interesting thread:

I say that atheism is simply a state of ignorance.

And I can add that an atheist is not one who does not believe in god but one who believes that he is his own god.

This "God thing" always gets people going, and fighting. My god is greater than your god etc, although this seems to be something unique to the followers of Islam, Judaism and of course Christians, all of whome follow the same "God". Strange.

I say that atheism is simply a state of ignorance. There is no God, therefore an atheist is correct. His or her, "Own God"?...Still a God, a self centred one perhaps but still a god ...A "part" of God? But that means there is a God ,..not an atheist thing...Are we ourselves collectively, "God"?...After all, are we not told that if we wish to serve God, we must serve one another...Is the big problem just that we are all in ignorance of just who we really are?..Does the atheist (and not only the atheist) need to go beyond his or her belief, or none belief, as the case may be...Is there something we all need to wake up to. Do any of us need religion anymore?..Or does the buck actually stop with us?

Could this all be nothing but a question of terminology?
By saying "there is or isn't a god" do we mean and understad that verb in the same way?
Like "Is there gravity" - it is nowhere and everywhere. It effects everything yet is invisible. Does it "exist" or is it "just there"?

I think that the conflict of religions, including the aethists as I said above, is the interpretation of what must we, as humans DO (in order to satisfy a will of a god) in view of owr understanding that we are not here "by chance".

[peakman]

Mar 26, 2009 18:48:38 GMT avieder said:

Mar 26, 2009 17:05:42 GMT peakman said:

This "God thing" always gets people going, and fighting. My god is greater than your god etc, although this seems to be something unique to the followers of Islam, Judaism and of course Christians, all of whome follow the same "God". Strange.

I say that atheism is simply a state of ignorance. There is no God, therefore an atheist is correct. His or her, "Own God"?...Still a God, a self centred one perhaps but still a god ...A "part" of God? But that means there is a God ,..not an atheist thing...Are we ourselves collectively, "God"?...After all, are we not told that if we wish to serve God, we must serve one another...Is the big problem just that we are all in ignorance of just who we really are?..Does the atheist (and not only the atheist) need to go beyond his or her belief, or none belief, as the case may be...Is there something we all need to wake up to. Do any of us need religion anymore?..Or does the buck actually stop with us?

Could this all be nothing but a question of terminology?
By saying "there is or isn't a god" do we mean and understad that verb in the same way?
Like "Is there gravity" - it is nowhere and everywhere. It effects everything yet is invisible. Does it "exist" or is it "just there"?

I think that the conflict of religions, including the aethists as I said above, is the interpretation of what must we, as humans DO (in order to satisfy a will of a god) in view of owr understanding that we are not here "by chance".

Fair comment. I personally don't think we are here by chance. I also have to ask how all this came about. I read that many physicists also can not logically conclude it is all a matter of chance. As yet no "God" but yes also, there has to be an intelligence behind what they have studied.

My take on this is that even if we are in part "alien" then all this would do, would be to go beyond this planet, indeed beyond this solar system and "Go cosmic". Conclusion? "Cosmic intelligence"?

Whatever it is, my point is that we, not some "God", are the end product of this "Cosmic intelligence" and not some "one off" result of coincidence, unique to this planet.

Therefore if this was the case, we could be considered to be all of one thing, call it the body of this "intelligence" and therefore to conclude, could it not be said that when mankind is at war with one another, over this or that, it is actually, in it's ignorance, at war with it's self?

[avieder]

"Therefore if this was the case, we could be considered to be all of one thing, call it the body of this "intelligence" and therefore to conclude, could it not be said that when mankind is at war with one another, over this or that, it is actually, in it's ignorance, at war with it's self? "

You can even go further and say that the whole creation is all part of G-d. So when a lion catches a deer, it is eating itself...
Somehow I agree but not only on the physical level but on the spiritual one too - You know in the realm of "love", "hope", ... The equilibrium of nature is actually contrary to logic. Look in your garden. What will it look like if you did not take care of it?

[bertrus2]

I personally don't think we are here by chance.

That has nothing to do with religion.

[bertrus2]

the fact that it was a fraud was already established

Only in the tiny twisted minds of the Hasbara gangs.

[peakman]

Mar 27, 2009 16:13:01 GMT bertrus2 said:

I personally don't think we are here by chance.

That has nothing to do with religion.

But what is religion? Or to be specific, Christianity. To be even more specific, Christianity as we know it today. To be a Christian, one is required to "believe". This according to the doctrine of Paul, he has a lot to answer for.

[peakman]

Mar 27, 2009 14:59:21 GMT avieder said:

"Therefore if this was the case, we could be considered to be all of one thing, call it the body of this "intelligence" and therefore to conclude, could it not be said that when mankind is at war with one another, over this or that, it is actually, in it's ignorance, at war with it's self? "

You can even go further and say that the whole creation is all part of G-d. So when a lion catches a deer, it is eating itself...
Somehow I agree but not only on the physical level but on the spiritual one too - You know in the realm of "love", "hope", ... The equilibrium of nature is actually contrary to logic. Look in your garden. What will it look like if you did not take care of it?

Love overcomes all. (Karma) If you really what to remove your "karmic burden" then love those who hate you, turn the other cheek etc. The greatest thing a person can do in this matter, is to give up his or her life in order that others shall live.* (Unlike some who I could mention who believe they are doing God's will if they give up their life in order that others shall die)

* Not the easiest of doctrines.

[peakman]

Mar 27, 2009 14:59:21 GMT avieder said:

"Therefore if this was the case, we could be considered to be all of one thing, call it the body of this "intelligence" and therefore to conclude, could it not be said that when mankind is at war with one another, over this or that, it is actually, in it's ignorance, at war with it's self? "

You can even go further and say that the whole creation is all part of G-d. So when a lion catches a deer, it is eating itself...
Somehow I agree but not only on the physical level but on the spiritual one too - You know in the realm of "love", "hope", ... The equilibrium of nature is actually contrary to logic. Look in your garden. What will it look like if you did not take care of it?

Further to the above. "So when a lion catches a deer, it is eating itself..." This of course demolishes the argument, unless there is another factor. Ever considered that we may not be all we seem to be? That is to say, the end produce of evolution. I say this cos I am of the belief that the human race is not totally indigenous to this planet but is a genetically modified ape, a result of a genetic engineering project by an alien culture.

Therefore are we/have we become, a noble and cultured supper ape, or a supper ape with the capacity to be highly dangerous to each other and to the planet it's self?

[avieder]

Mar 29, 2009 10:55:42 GMT peakman said:

Mar 27, 2009 14:59:21 GMT avieder said:

"Therefore if this was the case, we could be considered to be all of one thing, call it the body of this "intelligence" and therefore to conclude, could it not be said that when mankind is at war with one another, over this or that, it is actually, in it's ignorance, at war with it's self? "

You can even go further and say that the whole creation is all part of G-d. So when a lion catches a deer, it is eating itself...
Somehow I agree but not only on the physical level but on the spiritual one too - You know in the realm of "love", "hope", ... The equilibrium of nature is actually contrary to logic. Look in your garden. What will it look like if you did not take care of it?

Further to the above. "So when a lion catches a deer, it is eating itself..." This of course demolishes the argument, unless there is another factor. Ever considered that we may not be all we seem to be? That is to say, the end produce of evolution. I say this cos I am of the belief that the human race is not totally indigenous to this planet but is a genetically modified ape, a result of a genetic engineering project by an alien culture.

Therefore are we/have we become, a noble and cultured supper ape, or a supper ape with the capacity to be highly dangerous to each other and to the planet it's self?

No, I do not believe that we are some development of an ape.
I think we are a unique creation. As to the lion-deer or "big fish-small fish" relationship, this is how nature works. Like even in our bodies cells are born and die, white blood cells commit suicide by eating germs in order to protect the body, .....

What is "the value of life " if we are just an accident of elements mostly water....?

[peakman]

What is "the value of life " if we are just an accident of elements mostly water....? Are creatures conscious of life? And therefore of death. Is mankind the only one who not only lives, but is conscious of life. Why should this be, unless there is a purpose behind this ability? Couple that with mankind's unique ability to extract and put to use the energy that abounds within the environment...Very soon we will have reached the ultimate, that of being able to replicate the source of all energy.

All this for no purpose? I very much doubt it.

[avieder]

Mar 31, 2009 9:37:05 GMT peakman said:

What is "the value of life " if we are just an accident of elements mostly water....? Are creatures conscious of life? And therefore of death. Is mankind the only one who not only lives, but is conscious of life. Why should this be, unless there is a purpose behind this ability? Couple that with mankind's unique ability to extract and put to use the energy that abounds within the environment...Very soon we will have reached the ultimate, that of being able to replicate the source of all energy.

All this for no purpose? I very much doubt it.

So we are unanimous. And you are not such a none believer after all

[Marshall]

The idea that makes the most sense to me is that the whole of reality is the process of "God" (for want of a better word) becoming completely self-aware. As individuals this is what we should be doing on the microcosmic scale and is the true sense of "religion".

[avieder]

Mar 31, 2009 22:40:04 GMT Marshall said:

The idea that makes the most sense to me is that the whole of reality is the process of "God" (for want of a better word) becoming completely self-aware. As individuals this is what we should be doing on the microcosmic scale and is the true sense of "religion".

Yes, Marshall, I agree.

In that sense then perhaps the religion emulates a connection or conversation with G-d. Like "what do we need to do" with this understanding. How to behave with respect to reality (nature, other people ) and with respect to that G-d (prayer)

Therefore, it makes no difference what religion you practice as long its the one passed down the generations to you.

[bertrus2]

How to behave with respect to reality (nature, other people ) and with respect to that G-d (prayer)

Other people? Reality? In view of your role as an Israeli militant, you have to be joking.

[yord]

I once made a study of knacked in pool tables and discovered they all had the same thing in common.No matter where you hit the ball it always dribbles into the corner pocket closest to the bar.

[avieder]

Mar 21, 2009 17:53:42 GMT peakman said:

I say that atheism is simply a state of ignorance.

Right. AND it is a religion by itself.
A religion in which the god is the person him/her self.

[peakman]

Mar 31, 2009 11:42:03 GMT avieder said:

Mar 31, 2009 9:37:05 GMT peakman said:

What is "the value of life " if we are just an accident of elements mostly water....? Are creatures conscious of life? And therefore of death. Is mankind the only one who not only lives, but is conscious of life. Why should this be, unless there is a purpose behind this ability? Couple that with mankind's unique ability to extract and put to use the energy that abounds within the environment...Very soon we will have reached the ultimate, that of being able to replicate the source of all energy.

All this for no purpose? I very much doubt it.

So we are unanimous. And you are not such a none believer after all

Spot on. When I say "none believer" I am saying I do not associate myself with mainstream Christianity which require me to "believe". No one tells me what to believe.

[peakman]

Mar 31, 2009 22:40:04 GMT Marshall said:

The idea that makes the most sense to me is that the whole of reality is the process of "God" (for want of a better word) becoming completely self-aware. As individuals this is what we should be doing on the microcosmic scale and is the true sense of "religion".

Knowledge of "self". Yes, the "bottom line"