Quackery, whats the harm?

[jimboky]

My nephew died not to long ago of heart attack, which was believed a result of taking pain pills for his back problems, I do believed that chiropractor may have been a better choice, may not have but who knows

Are chiropractors in Canada covered by Canada-Care? here most people I know who use them pay for them out of pocket as they are not usually covered by ins. people usually try MDs first and only go to CP after MD fails

[voice]

Believed by who?
Sad though his death is I've not come across anyone having a hear attack solely down to taking pain meds for back ache, I suspect there was many other factors. In any case not knowing the cause of the pain or what co-morbidites he had or the meds he was taking its hard to make a judgement.

No the health system here covers evidenced based medicine only, not quackery, you pay to risk injury here much the same as down there.

its worth noting back pain is one of the hardest things to treat, people like to think there are quick fixes and hearing your back snap together with the placebo effect of a promised quick cure many do receive temporary relief, and as i said earlier its well known many of them mix their quackery with physiotherapy, if you are lucky enough to get one who uses lots of physiotherapy it will certainly help mind, but as I said whats often required for back pain is changes of lifestyle many are not willing to do, diet changes, weight loss exercise and so on, and possibly anti-inflammatory drugs to get you through the work needed, non of which are the quick fix easy options people want and that the quacks offer.

[voice]

and getting back to the story in OP, do you honestly think snapping the spine of a 4 month old about will cure its colic?

I mean really, WFT?

[jimboky]

I've heard of it being done, no personal involvement, no opinion,

even if it is a placebo, if it were to keep them off pain pills it would be positive,
doesn't it strike you as odd that people given the choice of free MD would chose to pay CP?

[voice]

No, not at all, people have long turned to magical thinking and quick fix solutions so its hardly new or surprising. Also there is a strong anti-science movement these days and quackery is a multi-billion $ industry pushing their anti-science agenda in any number of places.

[Marshall]

Is Rolfing still a thing?

Everyone should be able to try pot for pain before they become hooked on and possibly OD on pain pills.

[jimboky]

Jun 3, 2016 18:40:45 GMT voice said:

No, not at all, people have long turned to magical thinking and quick fix solutions so its hardly new or surprising. Also there is a strong anti-science movement these days and quackery is a multi-billion $ industry pushing their anti-science agenda in any number of places.

yeah, it is hard to tell someone who has been to a MD with no help who then goes to a CP and walks out without pain that it's the CP that's the quack,
there is something to what you say I guess, most people I have known to go to CP have to keep going, you can't really call it a cure, but most claim that the treatments do help. They seem to have at least as good a batting average as the MD's, I've never been to one myself, never had the need, I would go before I took pills or anything though.

I doubt that CPs are the replacement to MDs, but I do believe they have their uses

[voice]

I never said placebos don't work or that some might get temporary relief, but as you say they make sure to keep milking your wallet for as long as they can.

what a lot of people can't accept is, sometimes there is no cure, only things that can be mitigated and sometimes not even that.

[jimboky]

if there is no cure, and a CP seems to help at least for the short term what's the problem? there are times where that's the least lousy option, from what I understand they don't charge much, my Father-in-law went to one about twice a year for years, he is now dead but nothing related to the CP

[voice]

the problem is there is risk of very real harm, up to an including death, but also including permanent nerve damage, stroke, paralysis, prolongation of injuries that may well have been helped by physio. On top of that chiropractor quacks are at the forefront of the anti vax movement, and apart from manipulating your spine to relieve back pain they make the most fantastical claims about curing everything from colic in new born babies to cancer by snapping your back about.

whatstheharm.net/chiropractic.html

[nobody]

Jun 3, 2016 19:24:00 GMT Marshall said:

Is Rolfing still a thing?

Everyone should be able to try pot for pain before they become hooked on and possibly OD on pain pills.

Nah, Rolf is still inside.

[flatandy]

Jun 3, 2016 21:00:24 GMT voice said:

the problem is there is risk of very real harm, up to an including death, but also including permanent nerve damage, stroke, paralysis, prolongation of injuries that may well have been helped by physio. On top of that chiropractor quacks are at the forefront of the anti vax movement, and apart from manipulating your spine to relieve back pain they make the most fantastical claims about curing everything from colic in new born babies to cancer by snapping your back about.

whatstheharm.net/chiropractic.html

This is the point, I think.

It's not that it might not do some good. It's that it might also do massive harm, and you have no real idea what it'll do because it's unregulated. And you know the parts that will be beneficial could be done by a medically trained physio. In the same way that you could take huge amount of unregulated heroin or opium and it would help with pain relief. But you've no idea what harm you're doing, and you could do huge amounts of extra harm, and all the benefits you get would be better from regulated, controlled morphine.

[perrykneeham]

I had to take one of my colleagues to A&E yesterday and while I was waiting for him I saw a slightly elderly lady struggling to carry a walking frame that she had just been given for her husband. I offered to carry this to her car and as we walked to the car park she told be how either she or her husband was often sick but never at the same time.

On the way back she asked why I was there and explained that my welder had had his hand crushed.

"Arnica - just a trace of arnica. I swear by it." She said.

f**k**g idiot.

[clarity]

What's Arnica? Is it an ointment? There's something called Voltaren here which is a lotion for back ache, my physiotherapist said it was expensive snake oil and doesn't work.

[voice]

Arnica is extract of a flower some think has medicinal powers.

Medicinal uses Edit
See also: Helenalin
Commercial Arnica preparations are frequently used by professional athletes.[5] According to The Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, "A few clinical trials suggest benefits of topical arnica for osteoarthritis; and for affecting significant reduction of bruising compared to placebo or low concentration vitamin K ointments. However, a small study reported that topical arnica actually increased pain 24 hours after calf exercises." [6]

A study of wound-healing after surgery to treat varicose veins found no statistically significant proof of efficacy.[7]

Toxicity Edit
Arnica montana contains the toxin helenalin, which can be poisonous if large amounts of the plant are eaten, and contact with the plant can also cause skin irritation.[8][9] If enough of the material is ingested, the toxin helenalin produces severe gastroenteritis, and internal bleeding of the digestive tract.[10] Homeopathic preparations of Arnica 24X dilution or more contain no active ingredient and are, therefore, non-toxic.[11][12][13]

Homeopathy Edit
Homeopathic preparations of Arnica are widely marketed and used. In the UK, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency has registered the product for sprains and bruising under the National Rules for Homoeopathic Products (2006). These rules allow claims of efficacy for these conditions to be made on the packaging in the absence of similar evidence to that required for conventional medicines under the Medicines Act 1968 and 1971.[14] A systematic review of clinical trials showed that homeopathic Arnica was no more effective than a placebo.[15] In some quarters, the fact that homeopathic Arnica has been the subject of published clinical trials at all has drawn criticism grounded on the allegation that the basic premise of the high dilutions used in homeopathy would be inherently flawed.[13]

[nobody]

Jun 12, 2016 23:23:16 GMT clarity said:

What's Arnica? Is it an ointment? There's something called Voltaren here which is a lotion for back ache, my physiotherapist said it was expensive snake oil and doesn't work.

Voltarol is an ointment here, I've used it on an inflamed ankle, worked for me, unless it just ran it's course, although I got relief 30 mins after I'd applied it.

[Deleted]

Arnica works on bruises.

[nobody]

So does cold tea actually.

[flatandy]

I'm pretty sure arnica doesn't work much better than the flow of time.

I'm 100% sure that homeopathic arnica is about as useful on bruises as ketchup is as rocket fuel.

The weird thing is that I have friends with proper educations, science degrees and all that, who try to persuade me that full strength arnica's not much use for anything but homeopathic arnica's the actual canine's gonads as medicice, and that the lower the concentration, the better it is.

[perrykneeham]

Slaughter the homeopaths! Allahu Akhbar!