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Post by flatandy on Dec 4, 2019 19:19:23 GMT
Why would you go down the utterly tenuous mental health route when you already have Trump bang to rights on actual corruption, abuse of power, bribery, extortion, subversion of democracy, and damaging national security for personal benefit?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 8:23:52 GMT
The icing on the cake. I find it odd indeed that people should want deranged spivs as leader. Seems endemic.
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Post by flatandy on Dec 5, 2019 14:44:59 GMT
I think it's utterly unhelpful. I think the kitchen sink approach to impeachment is already unhelpful. It is better, I think, to have a short number of very clear, easily understood, basically proven charges against him. If you charge him with 200 things, 160 of which will get laughed out for lack of evidence, the public will think the other 40 are also silly trivialities. Instead, find restricted number of very, very clear charges where it's a clear and massive abuse of power that actually damages US democracy and you have a more compelling way of making the case.
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voice
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Post by voice on Dec 5, 2019 15:47:08 GMT
It was interesting yesterday, when the republican pet law professor started arguing the scope was too narrow and congress needed to spend more time questioning the witnesses such as Bolton, Pompao and so on, just how quickly the republicans shut him down.
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Post by jimboky on Dec 5, 2019 16:30:03 GMT
we all know that there will be a vote for impeachment, they have been calling for it for 3 years now, however it is not certain that it will pass congress, last vote 2 dems bolted, I expect more the next vote, the question is will Nancy be able to pull together a majority, I would give here a 60% chance
when this happens dems will likely lose the house, and another seat or two in senate, Trump is even more likely reelected, GO NANCY!
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Post by flatandy on Dec 5, 2019 16:37:42 GMT
How have they been calling for it for 3 years when Trump didn't even start this particular piece of abuse of power until 2019?
It's interesting that Trump's "defenders" are all talking about the tactics of the votes, rather than whether what he did was wrong.
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Post by voice on Dec 5, 2019 16:42:40 GMT
its cos they can't defend his corrupt abuse of power so they moan about the process. All you need to do is play the 'what would the GOP have done if Obama had done this' game to see the hypocrisy of the Trump Party.
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Post by jimboky on Dec 5, 2019 17:02:27 GMT
the next day after Trump was elected dems were talking about impeachment,
Obama could have very well been impeached for Fast and Furious, IRS,,,,,,,,,,,,,, would likely not been removed by senate though even with a GOP senate, there was no way of getting 66 votes, just like with a GOP senate the dems won't either, the dems are playing a losing hand
in Clinton impeachment with a GOP senate they still couldn't get the 66 votes to impeach, and it cost the GOP the senate, if Nancy can drag this on till after CA's primary vote she will likely find a way to drop it
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voice
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Post by voice on Dec 5, 2019 17:23:34 GMT
well the first point is bollox, we know some lawyer talked about it, but they're not elected congress.
the second is risible
the third is valid, Clinton got more popular by having an intern blow him, though having an intern blow him is a world of difference to asking a foreign government to declare your political rivals a criminal and get them to help Trump elected. Though we know Moscow Mitch won't let the 'dear leader' (sic) get thrown out.
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Post by perrykneeham on Dec 5, 2019 17:30:48 GMT
the third is valid, Clinton got more popular by having an intern blow him, though having an intern blow him is a world of difference to asking a foreign government to declare your political rivals a criminal and get them to help Trump elected You're right: Clinton got away with doing something that would have got you or I summarily dismissed. And then he lied about it to Congress and the American people. Nobody in America is above the Law, apparently.
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voice
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Post by voice on Dec 5, 2019 17:46:58 GMT
The problem they have is they've set a precedence that the president can't be criminally charged in a court of law, and its next to impossible to convict them in a senate that needs two thirds majority, we know Trump will get away with his criminality and corruption, we always knew that, but the bigger question is if you simply say impeachment is a waste of time then there is no way even to bring such criminality to light and you end up with someone like Trump who will do all manner of criminal acts knowing he's untouchable.
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Post by perrykneeham on Dec 5, 2019 18:11:26 GMT
At least Clinton never said he was untouchable. Quite the opposite.
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Post by voice on Dec 5, 2019 18:36:28 GMT
Yeah granted, and he admited he got his intern to blow him, didn't try to buy her silence either, plus the Dens didn't just say 'nothing to see here, move along now' as the GOP are doing. Though Clinton wasn't the head of a cult in the way Trump is.
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Post by perrykneeham on Dec 5, 2019 18:43:45 GMT
Yeah granted, and he admited he got his intern to blow him, didn't try to buy her silence either, plus the Dens didn't just say 'nothing to see here, move along now' as the GOP are doing. Though Clinton wasn't the head of a cult in the way Trump is. Really? He fessed up to the nothing, did he? From the get-go? No influence applied? Must've been a different Bill Clinton.
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Post by jimboky on Dec 5, 2019 18:45:40 GMT
The problem they have is they've set a precedence that the president can't be criminally charged in a court of law, and its next to impossible to convict them in a senate that needs two thirds majority, we know Trump will get away with his criminality and corruption, we always knew that, but the bigger question is if you simply say impeachment is a waste of time then there is no way even to bring such criminality to light and you end up with someone like Trump who will do all manner of criminal acts knowing he's untouchable. no it didn't, Clinton was not charged criminally, congress impeaching is not a criminal court, it was after he left office that he was disbarred
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Post by flatandy on Dec 5, 2019 19:01:10 GMT
its cos they can't defend his corrupt abuse of power so they moan about the process. It's not even about process now. They've stopped pretending he didn't do what's claimed. They've stopped defending those actions as reasonable. (Although some are still claiming that Trump is basically allowed to do absolutely anything and impeachment effectively is meaningless). They've even stopped attacking the process. Now all they've got is hoping that the political consequences of the process will be bad for Democrats. The comparison with Clinton is instructive, though: Clinton abused the power of the office to get a blow-job - or, at least, did not consider that the power dynamic would make any sex with an intern look a little rapey. But he did not actually damage the US. Trump has abused the power of the office to try and corrupt the next election, and in the process undermined US national security as voted by Congress. Just because the public gave the Republicans a kicking for their frivolous attempt at impeachment over something dodgy but not damaging to the Republic, does not mean they'll give Democrats a kicking for impeaching someone who is shaking down a US ally by withholding military assistance in order to try and get them to smear one of his potential next opponents.
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Post by voice on Dec 5, 2019 19:50:14 GMT
Yeah granted, and he admited he got his intern to blow him, didn't try to buy her silence either, plus the Dens didn't just say 'nothing to see here, move along now' as the GOP are doing. Though Clinton wasn't the head of a cult in the way Trump is. Really? He fessed up to the nothing, did he? From the get-go? No influence applied? Must've been a different Bill Clinton.
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Post by voice on Dec 5, 2019 19:56:19 GMT
The problem they have is they've set a precedence that the president can't be criminally charged in a court of law, and its next to impossible to convict them in a senate that needs two thirds majority, we know Trump will get away with his criminality and corruption, we always knew that, but the bigger question is if you simply say impeachment is a waste of time then there is no way even to bring such criminality to light and you end up with someone like Trump who will do all manner of criminal acts knowing he's untouchable. no it didn't, Clinton was not charged criminally, congress impeaching is not a criminal court, it was after he left office that he was disbarred well now you admit its not always about the criminality, its a political process, the Dems are well within their rights to impeach him yes? Added to that he clearly broke the law of the constitution by asking a foreign government to interfere in the next election, he has clearly obstructed justice by not allowing the witness to testify nor hand over documents related to the corruption he perpetrated with regards to Ukraine. In most other places leaders are not above the law as in the US and could be charged in a court of law for these offences, but as you're happy with criminals in office being above the law (well GOP ones) impeachment is all thats available.
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Post by perrykneeham on Dec 5, 2019 20:44:17 GMT
Really? He fessed up to the nothing, did he? From the get-go? No influence applied? Must've been a different Bill Clinton. From the get-go is that?
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Post by jimboky on Dec 5, 2019 21:17:04 GMT
well now you admit its not always about the criminality, its a political process, the Dems are well within their rights to impeach him yes?
Yes!, impeachment is and always has been a political process, the rules are whatever the party in charge of congress says they are, just like it will be in the Senate if it ever goes that far,
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