|
Post by jimboky on May 6, 2017 15:28:53 GMT
the people who were Massively Under-insured still had better coverage then those on Obama Care today, but it was cheep then, I disagreed with the GOP then and the Dem and the GOP now, the government has been creeping into the health care industry for over 30 years I know of, probably longer, every step they make, either party, ends op costing me money, Obama care was just the last, and the biggest, and the costliest
|
|
voice
New Member
Goals are a form of self inflicted slavery
Posts: 40,954
Member is Online
|
Post by voice on May 6, 2017 15:53:42 GMT
Yeah I know that's the line you cling to Jim, it's the tribal nature of the right, however the facts (remember them) are for all of the things that might have been fixed with the ACA, non of them are fixed by kicking 24 million off their insurance and slashing medicare to pay for a massive TAX cut for the wealthy, and even if you did get rid off all government involvement in health care and condemned millions to an early death how could it ever be good for your country to have health care system more akin to Somalia than a modern industrialized country?
|
|
|
Post by jimboky on May 6, 2017 16:05:26 GMT
Funny, prier to Obama if you went into any major, or even minor city you would see major construction of hospitals, not so today, now hospitals are struggling to stay open, forget expansion, how does this help with getting more people health care? in economics 101 you learn that the more there is of anything the cheeper it is, shortages always lead to higher costs,
every time the government helped with health care it cost me, and those like me money, not forcing people to keep the over expensive health care insurance does not equal kicking them off health care insurance,, I once asked a Amish man how they managed to get by without health insurance, he pointed out that over time he managed to get health care cheaper then with health insurance, he won the point
|
|
voice
New Member
Goals are a form of self inflicted slavery
Posts: 40,954
Member is Online
|
Post by voice on May 6, 2017 16:10:14 GMT
Well as you already said you get coverage through a work policy how has it cost you exactly?
|
|
|
Post by clarity on May 6, 2017 16:13:09 GMT
You could simplify the whole thing by paying slightly more taxes and having universal coverage. Which is what happens here. Everybody pays for health care in Ontario via taxes. Everybody is covered for health care. Tbh I never noticed the deduction from my salary.
The problem with US health care is that it benefits people in full time employment and the rich. Too many people have a vested interest in keeping it that way.
I think Jim's constant moan about 'government interference' is evidence of a much more profound argument. It's ingrained in Americans to uphold individual rights, rather than collective rights and to resist government 'interference' to the point of paranoia. There should be a balance imo, but it won't ever happen in the US.
Most Americans I know envy our universal health care system, some think we're a socialist country though. I spend hours discussing with them the 'collective' rights and point out that it's far better to have a healthy society who can contribute their share of the health taxes and contribute to the economy. They don't get it and keep on saying it's government interference in their lives. How can it be government interference when universal health care is the will of the people?
The government here doesn't tell me which clinic or doctor to go to or which hospital I must go to either. I am free to go to any clinic, any doctor's office and any hospital. All I have to do is produce my health care card the rest is taken care of courtesy of taxpayers, of which I am one. On my own I could never have afforded the medical care I've received over the years.
Basically I look at the US as a third world country until they get serious about providing universal health care.
|
|
voice
New Member
Goals are a form of self inflicted slavery
Posts: 40,954
Member is Online
|
Post by voice on May 6, 2017 16:18:35 GMT
And the odd thing about you reps is say you want government out of health care but are perfectly happy for them to tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies or impose totally unnecessary invasive procedures on them as a way for the government to control their health choices. And you'd obviously have no issue with the government restrictions your party is wanting to put on women's access to contraception, you might not want the government controlling your lives, but it's fine for them to keep those pespy women in their place eh?
|
|
|
Post by jimboky on May 6, 2017 17:08:59 GMT
The government here doesn't tell me which clinic or doctor to go to or which hospital I must go to either. I am free to go to any clinic, any doctor's office and any hospital. All I have to do is produce my health care card the rest is taken care of courtesy of taxpayers, of which I am one. On my own I could never have afforded the medical care I've received over the years.
that is not how it is under Obama care, I'm not really on Obama Care but our plans are more restrictive than that,I can go "out of network" but it cost more, health insurance has been going down hill for over 20 years, have yet to see a new government regulation that didn't end of costing me, reguardless of which party is in power,
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on May 6, 2017 17:23:00 GMT
The pre-existing condition crap tells you all you need to know. It's not about providing health insurance, it's about profits for insurers. Mostly the GOPs fault but the Dems are not without blame, Hillary went from saying "Democrats should not be arguing over if we should have universal health insurance" when she ran against Obama to criticizing Bernie for it being a main part of his platform.
It's doubtful we'd even need to raise taxes, we already spend more per capita than anyone. But no, there has to be nice profit motive involved in providing this basic and necessary service to people. The Republicans want to have mental illness as a pre-existing condition at the same time making sure the mentally ill have every right to buy a gun. It's not because they're stupid, it's because they (Congress in general) aren't representing people (even their own constituents), they represent the industries and corporations that pay them off.
|
|
|
Post by clarity on May 6, 2017 17:28:41 GMT
The government here doesn't tell me which clinic or doctor to go to or which hospital I must go to either. I am free to go to any clinic, any doctor's office and any hospital. All I have to do is produce my health care card the rest is taken care of courtesy of taxpayers, of which I am one. On my own I could never have afforded the medical care I've received over the years. that is not how it is under Obama care, I'm not really on Obama Care but our plans are more restrictive than that,I can go "out of network" but it cost more, health insurance has been going down hill for over 20 years, have yet to see a new government regulation that didn't end of costing me, reguardless of which party is in power, Don't be daft Jim, health care costs have gone up in the past 20 years, nurses now get decent salaries, equipment & drugs cost more etc., so you will be paying more either by taxes, which the government collects, or to big insurance companies. I'm paying more tax to health care than I did 20 years ago too. I don't mind because I want a quality health care system for all and I will benefit from that. Yes, I know your insurance plans are more restrictive, without going into a long story an American pregnant friend of mine found that out when she was rushed by ambulance to the nearest hospital because it was a high risk pregnancy and she was in danger of losing the baby. She couldn't be moved, not even in an ambulance, so was there for months leading up to the birth. She and her husband fought their insurance company for years to be reimbursed and eventually they were but not without considerable stress and spending money borrowed from family. Who the hell wants to deal with all that at what should be one of the most happiest times in your life welcoming your first child?
|
|
|
Post by jimboky on May 6, 2017 17:31:27 GMT
I thought everyone had insurance under obama care,
what pre-existing condition crap, that only applies to those who don't have insurance and are now choosing to buy insurance,
|
|
voice
New Member
Goals are a form of self inflicted slavery
Posts: 40,954
Member is Online
|
Post by voice on May 6, 2017 17:43:33 GMT
As Marshall said, Americans would pay far far less for health care if they had a national insurance system through taxation as every other modern country does, but the GOP receives staggering amounts from the insurance industry who would loose out if Americans paid less, so they sell this crock to their hapless voters that the government couldn't possibly run health care, or death panels would result from universal health care and so on, and tax would rise. Sure it would, but as most comparable countries spend half or less than half Americans pay for half the coverage while tax might go up, if you were paying twice that in insurance premiums what's the issue?
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on May 6, 2017 17:46:07 GMT
I thought everyone had insurance under obama care, what pre-existing condition crap, that only applies to those who don't have insurance and are now choosing to buy insurance, So just don't ever get out of work for any length of time, be a good productive little robot and you'll stay insured. And don't have any pre-existings when you come off of your parents insurance either.
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on May 6, 2017 17:48:59 GMT
Trump even used to be for universal healthcare until someone told him he was a Republican.
|
|
voice
New Member
Goals are a form of self inflicted slavery
Posts: 40,954
Member is Online
|
Post by voice on May 6, 2017 17:50:57 GMT
Sounds like he still, he was praising the Australian pm for having a much better health system just the other day
|
|
|
Post by Marshall on May 6, 2017 17:55:20 GMT
He doesn't even remember what he thinks anymore.
The good news is this crap the Reps are pulling is giving a lot of momentum to the movement to get universal healthcare.
|
|
voice
New Member
Goals are a form of self inflicted slavery
Posts: 40,954
Member is Online
|
Post by voice on May 6, 2017 18:02:47 GMT
Big money will fight tooth and nail against universal health care.
|
|
flatandy
New Member
Posts: 43,947
Member is Online
|
Post by flatandy on May 6, 2017 22:09:46 GMT
most disabled I know had medicare, which was 100% coverage with no co-pay, now they have Obama care, they are losing/ have lost the doctor they had, having to take whatever do will take them, if they can find one, but they do get free birth control pills This doesn't make any sense. The disabled are still on Medicare. As an aside, one of the ironies - at least among people I know - is that the people most vocally opposed to both the ACA and to government healthcare already have government healthcare. They're either elderly and on Medicaid, or they're ex-military and get their healthcare that way. But both are on government run healthcare schemes.
|
|
|
Post by clarity on May 6, 2017 22:45:23 GMT
most disabled I know had medicare, which was 100% coverage with no co-pay, now they have Obama care, they are losing/ have lost the doctor they had, having to take whatever do will take them, if they can find one, but they do get free birth control pills This doesn't make any sense. The disabled are still on Medicare. As an aside, one of the ironies - at least among people I know - is that the people most vocally opposed to both the ACA and to government healthcare already have government healthcare. They're either elderly and on Medicaid, or they're ex-military and get their healthcare that way. But both are on government run healthcare schemes. It doesn't make sense for the elderly to be opposed, unless they are very wealthy, because my understanding is that the bill gives insurers a lot more leeway to charge higher premiums to old people. So it's conceivable that the elderly would see their premiums rise by thousands of dollars and some could see their premiums double. And, even then, they wouldn’t necessarily be getting the same level of coverage that they currently receive.
|
|
|
Post by clarity on May 6, 2017 22:52:26 GMT
And the odd thing about you reps is say you want government out of health care but are perfectly happy for them to tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies or impose totally unnecessary invasive procedures on them as a way for the government to control their health choices. And you'd obviously have no issue with the government restrictions your party is wanting to put on women's access to contraception, you might not want the government controlling your lives, but it's fine for them to keep those pespy women in their place eh? Who was it who said that a country in crisis tend to strip women's rights first? The GOP doesn't care about women's rights just the rights of the fetus, so long as they don't have to actually do anything about that fetus having a decent quality of life such as a health care program.
|
|
|
Post by Repat Van on May 6, 2017 23:24:29 GMT
How on earth would this be a win for Obama? like Obama care, this IS government run health care, the discussion is not government health care or free market, it is over which government health care we use, Once again how is this a win for Obama? He's not in power, it's not his policy, it also strips millions of Americans of healthcare. So seeing as he's not around, has nothing to do with it and apparently doesn't achieve the goals he would have wanted...how exactly is it a win for him exactly?
|
|