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Post by jimboky on May 6, 2017 3:34:41 GMT
Well it's Trumpcare now & he & the GOP own it. Not quite, this is only the house, the senate still has to act, if however this, or something like makes it through it would be a win for Obama, only without any Democrat fingerprints, bad deal. should get a full repeal, Senate may stop it
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Post by Repat Van on May 6, 2017 4:54:04 GMT
How on earth would this be a win for Obama?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2017 7:49:08 GMT
As a by the by, can someone here explain to me why anyone would not want a system of universal healthcare? What's the logic or rationale behind denying citizens healthcare?
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auldhippy
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"There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them." Orwell
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Post by auldhippy on May 6, 2017 8:10:04 GMT
As a by the by, can someone here explain to me why anyone would not want a system of universal healthcare? What's the logic or rationale behind denying citizens healthcare? It's communism innit.
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Post by jimboky on May 6, 2017 12:36:27 GMT
How on earth would this be a win for Obama? like Obama care, this IS government run health care, the discussion is not government health care or free market, it is over which government health care we use,
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auldhippy
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"There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them." Orwell
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Post by auldhippy on May 6, 2017 12:38:35 GMT
No it isn't, it's about which private insurer you select.
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Post by jimboky on May 6, 2017 12:54:06 GMT
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Post by jimboky on May 6, 2017 13:05:58 GMT
Health care seemed to work much better 20 years ago back when there was no or very little government involvement,
back then you could, and many did cover themselves on own and spouse's insurance, you then could go to any doctor, of hospital with out any cost, then with the help of old uncle sam the insurance company no longer had to pay the secondary, every time the government gets involved in health care I get screwed, Obama care was the worst, looks like Trump care, if it passes, will maybe be a little better, still not like 20 years ago though
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Post by flatandy on May 6, 2017 13:13:57 GMT
As a by the by, can someone here explain to me why anyone would not want a system of universal healthcare? What's the logic or rationale behind denying citizens healthcare? Because it's much nicer to have sickly people not getting treated, littering the streets, infecting others. It's not a common good to have everyone being treated for health problems. More seriously, there's a mental attitude that the government should do as little as possible (apart from having the biggest military possible). And that it doesn't matter if the poor get sick because they probably deserve to be sick (see also insane Alabama congressman Mo Brooks claiming that "People who live good lives don't have pre-existing conditions"). Being sick is basically a moral failing for these f**k*d up maniacs. And certainly failing to be rich enough to pay for healthcare is a sign that you're basically a feckless waster, and a sad loser who didn't put the effort in. And not paying for your own insurance, and having a terrible insurance plan that doesn't cover anything is a sign that you're a pathetic, feeble loser who couldn't be bothered to get insurance or couldn't be bothered to research the fine print. It's certainly not the fault of the insurance companies offering terrible policies and the solution certainly isn't to regulate the insurance market. Basically, if you're sick it's your own fault and if you don't get treated it's your own fault and why should responsible people pay for your terrible choices?
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Post by flatandy on May 6, 2017 13:19:00 GMT
Health care seemed to work much better 20 years ago back when there was no or very little government involvement, back then you could, and many did cover themselves on own and spouse's insurance, you then could go to any doctor, of hospital with out any cost, then with the help of old uncle sam the insurance company no longer had to pay the secondary, every time the government gets involved in health care I get screwed, Obama care was the worst, looks like Trump care, if it passes, will maybe be a little better, still not like 20 years ago though 20 years ago there were twice as many bankruptcies from medical costs. 20 years ago almost everyone was indentured to their employers and there was a far less flexible employment market because people could not quit their jobs and start small businesses because they couldn't risk losing their health insurance and having to buy on the individual market. 20 years ago there were tens of millions more people than now without health insurance. 20 years ago people without health insurance used the Emergency Room for personal health care and those who didn't have the assets to pay were covered by the government for far more expensive treatment. 20 years ago people were scared to get diagnosed with anything, because then they'd have a pre-existing condition. The idea that it worked better 20 years ago is nonsense. It's the view of someone who was permanently employed and insulated from the perils of not having cover from a large business's plan
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Post by jimboky on May 6, 2017 13:20:44 GMT
back in the old days you had to carry insurance 6mo before it would cover pre-existing conditions, unless you had other insurance prier to getting the insurance, then the 6mo was waved,
with Obama care being in effect for the last 7 years there shouldn't be anyone who does not have insurance, there it doesn't matter
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Post by jimboky on May 6, 2017 13:27:59 GMT
Health care seemed to work much better 20 years ago back when there was no or very little government involvement, back then you could, and many did cover themselves on own and spouse's insurance, you then could go to any doctor, of hospital with out any cost, then with the help of old uncle sam the insurance company no longer had to pay the secondary, every time the government gets involved in health care I get screwed, Obama care was the worst, looks like Trump care, if it passes, will maybe be a little better, still not like 20 years ago though 20 years ago there were twice as many bankruptcies from medical costs. 20 years ago almost everyone was indentured to their employers and there was a far less flexible employment market because people could not quit their jobs and start small businesses because they couldn't risk losing their health insurance and having to buy on the individual market. 20 years ago there were tens of millions more people than now without health insurance. 20 years ago people without health insurance used the Emergency Room for personal health care and those who didn't have the assets to pay were covered by the government for far more expensive treatment. 20 years ago people were scared to get diagnosed with anything, because then they'd have a pre-existing condition. The idea that it worked better 20 years ago is nonsense. It's the view of someone who was permanently employed and insulated from the perils of not having cover from a large business's plan 20 years ago my health insurance cost less then half of what it does today, even without being carried as a secondary on my wife's ins the deductible was about a fourth, I had access to any hospital in the country, and with wife's ins help I didn't pay any deductible, though we no longer carry each other on ins, Thanks Obama
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Post by flatandy on May 6, 2017 13:44:51 GMT
Yep. Someone who was completely insulated from all the problems with the system through having permanent employers insurance. Of course, insurance costs were rising like crazy all through the Clinton and Bush years and actually the inflation slowed down dramatically once the ACA was enacted. I bet the costs from 20 years ago and the costs from 8 years ago were massively different.
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Post by jimboky on May 6, 2017 14:16:25 GMT
so, I should ignore reality and listen to mother government?
the only winner to obama care was the insurance companies,
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2017 14:40:03 GMT
As a by the by, can someone here explain to me why anyone would not want a system of universal healthcare? What's the logic or rationale behind denying citizens healthcare? Because it's much nicer to have sickly people not getting treated, littering the streets, infecting others. It's not a common good to have everyone being treated for health problems. More seriously, there's a mental attitude that the government should do as little as possible (apart from having the biggest military possible). And that it doesn't matter if the poor get sick because they probably deserve to be sick (see also insane Alabama congressman Mo Brooks claiming that "People who live good lives don't have pre-existing conditions"). Being sick is basically a moral failing for these f**k*d up maniacs. And certainly failing to be rich enough to pay for healthcare is a sign that you're basically a feckless waster, and a sad loser who didn't put the effort in. And not paying for your own insurance, and having a terrible insurance plan that doesn't cover anything is a sign that you're a pathetic, feeble loser who couldn't be bothered to get insurance or couldn't be bothered to research the fine print. It's certainly not the fault of the insurance companies offering terrible policies and the solution certainly isn't to regulate the insurance market. Basically, if you're sick it's your own fault and if you don't get treated it's your own fault and why should responsible people pay for your terrible choices? This attitude seems to be growing in the UK, and runs hand-in-hand with the Brexit mentality - I'm all right, so screw you. Disabled? - You're a lying cheat. Out of work? - Lazy bastard. I don't know how this miserable, uncaring attitude has grown so quickly, but it appears to be a US/UK thing, something to do with being a "real man".
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Post by jimboky on May 6, 2017 14:48:36 GMT
most disabled I know had medicare, which was 100% coverage with no co-pay, now they have Obama care, they are losing/ have lost the doctor they had, having to take whatever do will take them, if they can find one,
but they do get free birth control pills
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voice
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Post by voice on May 6, 2017 14:48:50 GMT
Oh the tories long have held that opinion, it goes hand in hand either the poor only being poor through choice, if only they'd work hard they would not be poor.
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voice
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Goals are a form of self inflicted slavery
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Post by voice on May 6, 2017 14:54:24 GMT
most disabled I know had medicare, which was 100% coverage with no co-pay, now they have Obama care, they are losing/ have lost the doctor they had, having to take whatever do will takeg them, if they can find one, but they do get free birth control pills So I take it you're in the 17% who like Trumpcare, fact is Trumpcare is simply a massive tax cut for the super wealthy, paid for by a 90 billion cut to medicare. And if the old system was so brilliant why did it cost twice as much and cover half as many as any comparable countries health ssystem. And why was illness the single largest cause for personal bankruptcy?
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Post by jimboky on May 6, 2017 14:59:24 GMT
no, I would much prefer a total repeal of obama care, I've said earlier on this thread I think the current bill is a win for Obama, however I think the current bill would be a little better then Obama care, at least it takes away the fines for not buying health care
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voice
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Goals are a form of self inflicted slavery
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Post by voice on May 6, 2017 15:07:43 GMT
Yes I know you want to go back to having a third of your population either not insured or massively underinsured, question is why do you hanker for a system that was terrible for all the reasons I listed above. I suspect it's ideological rather than actually wanting a good Healthcare system
It's odd to think 50 years ago the head of your party was calling for a universal single payer system, how far the gop have dropped that they prefer to see people die or driven to penury on the alter of ideology
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