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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 18:22:21 GMT
Ha ha ha ha ha... could be more truth in that than you'd think. Certainly true going by the general example you see on the net, youtube etc. I don't include our resident Brexiters among that lot though - at least they've had an education of sorts (although I'm still waiting one good, valid reason from them for leaving the union).
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Post by Repat Van on Apr 9, 2018 21:26:04 GMT
I think certain blokes still cling to the idea that if their son expresses interest in playing with a kitchen set of a Barbie they will somehow be turned gay, its absurd, but there you go. Both my boys had play kitchens at some point one liked Barbies for a while, both have chosen to wear pink shirts from time to time, both played with techno lego and played footy, I was never fussed what they chose to play with or wear for that matter as long as they were happy. Never did get why the mids and baloos of the world are so threatened by people not actively re-enforcing gender roles. The question is, even if their son did turn out gay...so what? |
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Post by Repat Van on Apr 9, 2018 21:26:46 GMT
Why can’t boys do what they want? Why can't parents do what THEY want? Who said they can’t? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2018 7:15:16 GMT
Parents not being gender neutral have been derided by you in your posts, so the implication is that they should be according to you. As in any colour you like providing it's black.
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moggyonspeed
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Post by moggyonspeed on Apr 10, 2018 8:25:53 GMT
To clarify my opinion one last time, van: -
- Gender-neutral parenting is fine for those parents wishing to engage in it;
- Ditto gender-specific parenting.
Neither is inherently better than the other, rather I would like to think that parents "parent" as they see fit; both can be examples of "good parenting" in the right context.
If you recall, my post about parents being allowed to do what they want was in reply to your comment - to paraphrase, why can't boys do what they want? FYI, there is a worrying increase in gun- and knife crime in London right now, the majority of it having been committed by adolescent males, and the evidence is that these same males come from families where parenting is either minimal or non-existent. I think this is a pretty good pointer as to why boys shouldn't necessarily be allowed to do what they want.
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Post by Repat Van on Apr 10, 2018 8:42:01 GMT
Parents not being gender neutral have been derided by you in your posts, so the implication is that they should be according to you. As in any colour you like providing it's black. You’re not struggling with the concept of supporting somebody’s right to do something, while finding what they are doing objectionable are you? It’s not that hard a concept to grasp. |
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Post by Repat Van on Apr 10, 2018 8:44:56 GMT
To clarify my opinion one last time, van: - - Gender-neutral parenting is fine for those parents wishing to engage in it; - Ditto gender-specific parenting. Neither is inherently better than the other, rather I would like to think that parents "parent" as they see fit; both can be examples of "good parenting" in the right context. If you recall, my post about parents being allowed to do what they want was in reply to your comment - to paraphrase, why can't boys do what they want? FYI, there is a worrying increase in gun- and knife crime in London right now, the majority of it having been committed by adolescent males, and the evidence is that these same males come from families where parenting is either minimal or non-existent. I think this is a pretty good pointer as to why boys shouldn't necessarily be allowed to do what they want. I disagree. I think gender neutral parenting IS inherently better than any parenting which restricts a child in accordance with an accident of birth. Of course parents have the right to raise their kids as they wish. And others have the right to criticise it. I am not sure why your comment about gun crime is relevant. You didn’t genuinely think I was asking why people shouldn’t be allowed to go around stabbing people did you? There is no gendered discussion when it comes to stabbing. It’s clearly wrong for anybody to stab anybody except in self defence. |
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moggyonspeed
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Post by moggyonspeed on Apr 10, 2018 9:33:25 GMT
"I disagree. I think gender neutral parenting IS inherently better than any parenting which restricts a child in accordance with an accident of birth."
If you have evidence of this, please share it with a link or a peer-reviewed science-based piece. Otherwise, your opinion is just that. Then define better; for whom? The parent(s)? The child? In the latter case, what are you measuring? How the child feels now? How she or he feels in 10-, 20- or 30-years' time?
My knife- and gun-crime point IS relevant to this discussion. You posited that boys should be allowed to do what they want, with no qualification to that statement. I pointed out, with an example based on both a tangible current youth-crime problem and the research that explains it, that lack of parenting (any kind) is the problem; gender-specific or gender-neutral is irrelevant, as I wouldn't expect either to have a better or worse outcome on knife- and gun-crime than the other.
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Post by Repat Van on Apr 10, 2018 9:56:22 GMT
"I disagree. I think gender neutral parenting IS inherently better than any parenting which restricts a child in accordance with an accident of birth." If you have evidence of this, please share it with a link or a peer-reviewed science-based piece. Otherwise, your opinion is just that. Then define better; for whom? The parent(s)? The child? In the latter case, what are you measuring? How the child feels now? How she or he feels in 10-, 20- or 30-years' time? My knife- and gun-crime point IS relevant to this discussion. You posited that boys should be allowed to do what they want, with no qualification to that statement. I pointed out, with an example based on both a tangible current youth-crime problem and the research that explains it, that lack of parenting (any kind) is the problem; gender-specific or gender-neutral is irrelevant, as I wouldn't expect either to have a better or worse outcome on knife- and gun-crime than the other. You want me to provide a “peer reviewed scientific paper” of my view that parenting which restricts a child on the basis of an accident of birth is worse? Pardon? I think bananas taste horrible - do I need to provide a scientific paper for that too? I think gender specific parenting is wrong because it is essentially just gender based discrimination. I don’t think girls/boys should be forced into a role at odds with their interests / appitudes / strengths based on genitalia. It reinforces at a young age that people should be treated adversely on account of their genitalia. Your knife example is irrelevant to the matter at hand. Nobody is arguing it’s ok for girls to go around stabbing people. I think you’ve gone off half cocked on a subject nobody was discussing. You should have followed the posts I was responding to (and indeed taken the time to understand the topic under discussion) instead of waffling on about knife crime. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2018 10:01:56 GMT
Parents not being gender neutral have been derided by you in your posts, so the implication is that they should be according to you. As in any colour you like providing it's black. You’re not struggling with the concept of supporting somebody’s right to do something, while finding what they are doing objectionable are you? It’s not that hard a concept to grasp. That was the point I was making, innit. |
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Post by Repat Van on Apr 10, 2018 10:12:02 GMT
You’re not struggling with the concept of supporting somebody’s right to do something, while finding what they are doing objectionable are you? It’s not that hard a concept to grasp. That was the point I was making, innit. No, you seem to think that there is a contradiction in saying somebody can choose how to parent while criticising the specific parenting choice they have made. |
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moggyonspeed
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Post by moggyonspeed on Apr 10, 2018 10:36:48 GMT
"You want me to provide a “peer reviewed scientific paper” of my view that parenting which restricts a child on the basis of an accident of birth is worse? I think bananas taste horrible - do I need to provide a scientific paper for that too?"
So your opinion is based around personal taste/bias, and nothing more.
"I think gender specific parenting is wrong because it is essentially just gender based discrimination."
If a father sees his son showing an interest in cars, the father is justified (not that any should be needed) in supporting that interest; I would argue that buying a RC car, a book about cars or a visit to the local car museum would be better parenting than buying his son a Cindy doll, a subscription to Jackie magazine or a visit to Tattenham Corner. If the son should show an interest in things "normally" of interest to girls, then support that too, but the parents should certainly not foist their views upon their kids because it suits their political agenda, world view or interpretation of the Law.
"Your gun control example is irrelevant to the matter at hand. Nobody is arguing it’s ok for girls to go around stabbing people. I think you’ve gone off half cocked on a subject nobody was discussing."
No, it's entirely relevant in pointing out the fallacy that boys can do anything they want. Expanding an argument to point out the fallacy of a position is totally valid in Classical Rhetoric. Btw, your "nobody is arguing it’s ok for girls to go around stabbing people" is a non sequitur from the discussion we were having about boys not being allowed to do what they want.
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Post by Repat Van on Apr 10, 2018 10:38:28 GMT
"You want me to provide a “peer reviewed scientific paper” of my view that parenting which restricts a child on the basis of an accident of birth is worse? I think bananas taste horrible - do I need to provide a scientific paper for that too?" So your opinion is based around personal taste/bias, and nothing more. "I think gender specific parenting is wrong because it is essentially just gender based discrimination." If a father sees his son showing an interest in cars, the father is justified (not that any should be needed) in supporting that interest; I would argue that buying a RC car, a book about cars or a visit to the local car museum would be better parenting than buying his son a Cindy doll, a subscription to Jackie magazine or a visit to Tattenham Corner. If the son should show an interest in things "normally" of interest to girls, then support that too, but the parents should certainly not foist their views upon their kids because it suits their political agenda, world view or interpretation of the Law. "Your gun control example is irrelevant to the matter at hand. Nobody is arguing it’s ok for girls to go around stabbing people. I think you’ve gone off half cocked on a subject nobody was discussing." No, it's entirely relevant in pointing out the fallacy that boys can do anything they want. Expanding an argument to point out the fallacy of a position is totally valid in Classical Rhetoric. Btw, your "nobody is arguing it’s ok for girls to go around stabbing people" is a non sequitur from the discussion we were having about boys not being allowed to do what they want. Yes my view is based on personal bias that gender based discrimination is wrong. It’s hardly a controversial view. And unless you can point to anybody arguing that it’s ok for girls to stab people but wrong for boys to do so it’s utterly irrelevant. You have written “we were having” in error. The only person having that discussion is you. |
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Post by Repat Van on Apr 10, 2018 10:41:30 GMT
“f a father sees his son showing an interest in cars, the father is justified (not that any should be needed) in supporting that interest; I would argue that buying a RC car, a book about cars or a visit to the local car museum would be better parenting than buying his son a Cindy doll, a subscription to Jackie magazine or a visit to Tattenham Corner. If the son should show an interest in things "normally" of interest to girls, then support that too, but the parents should certainly not foist their views upon their kids because it suits their political agenda, world view or interpretation of the Law.”  ? Seriously Moggy, read the bloody thread. |
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Post by wetkingcanute on Apr 10, 2018 10:57:18 GMT
We (my first wife and I) had a boy and then twin boys. I can honestly say that Gender Neutral or Gender Specific parenting never entered our heads.
We just brought them up as best we could.
...and brought more tissues when they were going through their teens.
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Post by Repat Van on Apr 10, 2018 11:03:09 GMT
I was raised in a gender neutral house as luckily, my parents separated when I was young (my dad was and is incredibly sexist.)
My mom never called it “gender neutral parenting” though. She just didn’t think her daughter should be raised differently to her sons. So she didn’t do that. I think that was on account of her childhood where her parents were very strict in enforcing gender roles and she is bitter about that to this day (she’s in her 50s).
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Post by Repat Van on Apr 10, 2018 11:03:48 GMT
We (my first wife and I) had a boy and then twin boys. I can honestly say that Gender Neutral or Gender Specific parenting never entered our heads. We just brought them up as best we could. ...and brought more tissues when they were going through their teens.  |
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moggyonspeed
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Post by moggyonspeed on Apr 10, 2018 11:08:18 GMT
Re-read it and, 20+ hours ago you questioned ("we discussed") "Why can’t boys do what they want?". I then gave you a cogent reason as to why not and how minimal parenting (sometimes none at all) left adolescent boys at risk of violent crime - all evidence-based stuff. You somehow seem to have conflated these arguments into some sort of bizarre "it’s ok for girls to go around stabbing people" narrative - worthy of the best Alice-in-Wonderland logic - and something that I have not proposed, not here nor anywhere else.
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Post by Repat Van on Apr 10, 2018 11:14:56 GMT
Re-read it and, 20+ hours ago you questioned ("we discussed") "Why can’t boys do what they want?". I then gave you a cogent reason as to why not and how minimal parenting (sometimes none at all) left adolescent boys at risk of violent crime - all evidence-based stuff. You somehow seem to have conflated these arguments into some sort of bizarre "it’s ok for girls to go around stabbing people" narrative - worthy of the best Alice-in-Wonderland logic - and something that I have not proposed, not here nor anywhere else. Moggy as I have said already - read the posts. The actual context and what is being responded to. “We” aren’t having a broad discussion about non existent parenting. Only you are. I haven’t once spoken about minimal / non existent parenting despite your alternative, “Alice-in-wonderland” insistance that I am. Nobody is arguing that girls should be allowed to stab people so you continuing to discuss that is irrelevant. |
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moggyonspeed
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Post by moggyonspeed on Apr 10, 2018 11:22:01 GMT
So your unqualified "Why can’t boys do what they want?" question shouldn't be challenged?
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