voice
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Post by voice on Oct 4, 2023 17:09:46 GMT
I don't think churches are or should be forced to offer religious marriages to those they don't want to, same as I object to churches trying to stop secular marriage to those they won't marry.
I've nothing against anyone believing what ever they like as long as they keep it to themselves and don't try to make others live by their beliefs and I object strongly to them being involved in policy and so on.
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Post by Repat Van on Oct 4, 2023 17:12:19 GMT
I don't think churches are or should be forced to offer religious marriages to those they don't want to, same as I object to churches trying to stop secular marriage to those they won't marry. I've nothing against anyone believing what ever they like as long as they keep it to themselves and don't try to make others live by their beliefs and I object strongly to them being involved in policy and so on. Hard agree. And in Oz that’s the case. I think there is only one religious body that has determined for themselves they wish to perform them. Everybody knows the rules of religions. Followers can themselves agitate for change within their religious body but the non-religious / government can butt out. Just as they should butt out of our lives. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 4, 2023 17:12:35 GMT
I'm pretty sure that is what their position is and also that this is another bit of inversion, as it is those who fall outside the churches' definition of marriageable that are demanding the churches accommodate them. What you are “pretty sure of” is incorrect. Certainly with regards the specific context and example I was referring to. And, within the specific context and example, I am referring to nobody was requesting churches accommodate them. As the topic was always non religious marriage. It was the religious wanting to impose themselves on the non-religious. Not the other way round. Please provide a link to the example you have. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 4, 2023 17:14:52 GMT
"churches trying to stop secular marriage to those they won't marry"
Where does this happen, outside of theocracies?
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voice
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Post by voice on Oct 4, 2023 17:16:21 GMT
I see the idiot is once again unable to engage in the argument.
Atheists don't yearn for oblivion same as theists yearn for heaven, we just recognize there is no evidence of heaven, we die, we cease to exist, we don't need a fantasy to give our lives meaning. And if you're only being good cos you fear hell and want to rewarded with heaven, you're just a bad person on a leash.
Oh and technically it was an angle to shagged a 12 year old married girl to conceive Jesus. That her hubby and everyone else bought her explanation is quite remarkable, really
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Post by Repat Van on Oct 4, 2023 17:17:26 GMT
What you are “pretty sure of” is incorrect. Certainly with regards the specific context and example I was referring to. And, within the specific context and example, I am referring to nobody was requesting churches accommodate them. As the topic was always non religious marriage. It was the religious wanting to impose themselves on the non-religious. Not the other way round. Please provide a link to the example you have. I already stated the context I was referring to. Go back and re read. (I should highlight, to be clear, not ALL religious groups were trying to impose their will on the non-religious. There was no consistent view. Some held the view (correctly) that as the proposed amendment was just about civil marriage that it had nothing to do with them and their definition would be unchanging. But the groups that did oppose it, primarily the ACL, absolutely wanted the non-religious to adhere to religious doctrine.) |
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voice
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Post by voice on Oct 4, 2023 17:18:22 GMT
"churches trying to stop secular marriage to those they won't marry" Where does this happen, outside of theocracies? Anywhere where gay marriage has been voted on or proposed and passed, churches have objected to it. |
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Post by Repat Van on Oct 4, 2023 17:25:32 GMT
"churches trying to stop secular marriage to those they won't marry" Where does this happen, outside of theocracies? “The French Catholic Church has joined a chorus of opposition against proposals to legalise same-sex marriage and adoption, which were a cornerstone of Socialist President François Hollande’s election campaign. The bill is due to be presented at Wednesday’s cabinet meeting -- but the parliamentary debates on a law that should have been a walk-through for the president have been postponed to January amid stronger than expected opposition. Over the weekend Cardinal André Vingt-Trois (pictured), head of the French Council of Bishops, branded gay marriage “the ultimate deceit”. In a sermon at pilgrimage site Lourdes in south-west France, he defended the sanctity of heterosexual parenthood and insisted that children “should be raised with a mother and a father as their reference point”. The Catholic Church’s stance on the issue follows similar statements from the head of France’s Protestant congregation, the leader of the French Council of the Muslim Faith and also France’s Chief Rabbi Gilles Bernheim. “[In the context of same-sex couples] the arguments about equality, love and the right to have children do not justify them being written into law,” Bernheim wrote in right-wing daily Le Figaro. Church ‘straying from its role’ France’s ruling Socialists hit back immediately. National Assembly Member Erwann Binet, who authored the bill, called on the Catholic Church to “open its eyes to the realities of the families that constitute the modern society -- single parent families, families headed by same-sex couples, families where couples are remarried.” Socialist Party Spokesman David Assouline accused the Church of “straying from its role in opposing the will of the legislature.” “The people voted for the Socialists in universal suffrage,” he said adding that it was not the Church’s place to criticise the government “when it comes to the issue of civil marriage in our secular state.” www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/as-australia-votes-on-same-sex-marriage-church-leaders-fight-back/2017/10/28/bd442722-b82c-11e7-9e58-e6288544af98_story.html“Many religious leaders see same-sex marriage as likely to weaken churches and lead to a more secular society. Led by Australia’s two biggest churches, the Catholics and the Anglicans, a well-organized and funded campaign has been trying to mobilize supporters. It is a moment where the influence of Christianity hits a threshold,” said Peter Sherlock, president of the Melbourne-based University of Divinity. “It shows that the churches are further out of step with how men and women relate to each other and how society sees marriage.” |
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 4, 2023 18:24:57 GMT
"churches trying to stop secular marriage to those they won't marry" Where does this happen, outside of theocracies? “The French Catholic Church has joined a chorus of opposition against proposals to legalise same-sex marriage and adoption, which were a cornerstone of Socialist President François Hollande’s election campaign. The bill is due to be presented at Wednesday’s cabinet meeting -- but the parliamentary debates on a law that should have been a walk-through for the president have been postponed to January amid stronger than expected opposition. Over the weekend Cardinal André Vingt-Trois (pictured), head of the French Council of Bishops, branded gay marriage “the ultimate deceit”. In a sermon at pilgrimage site Lourdes in south-west France, he defended the sanctity of heterosexual parenthood and insisted that children “should be raised with a mother and a father as their reference point”. The Catholic Church’s stance on the issue follows similar statements from the head of France’s Protestant congregation, the leader of the French Council of the Muslim Faith and also France’s Chief Rabbi Gilles Bernheim. “[In the context of same-sex couples] the arguments about equality, love and the right to have children do not justify them being written into law,” Bernheim wrote in right-wing daily Le Figaro. Church ‘straying from its role’ France’s ruling Socialists hit back immediately. National Assembly Member Erwann Binet, who authored the bill, called on the Catholic Church to “open its eyes to the realities of the families that constitute the modern society -- single parent families, families headed by same-sex couples, families where couples are remarried.” Socialist Party Spokesman David Assouline accused the Church of “straying from its role in opposing the will of the legislature.” “The people voted for the Socialists in universal suffrage,” he said adding that it was not the Church’s place to criticise the government “when it comes to the issue of civil marriage in our secular state.” www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/as-australia-votes-on-same-sex-marriage-church-leaders-fight-back/2017/10/28/bd442722-b82c-11e7-9e58-e6288544af98_story.html“Many religious leaders see same-sex marriage as likely to weaken churches and lead to a more secular society. Led by Australia’s two biggest churches, the Catholics and the Anglicans, a well-organized and funded campaign has been trying to mobilize supporters. It is a moment where the influence of Christianity hits a threshold,” said Peter Sherlock, president of the Melbourne-based University of Divinity. “It shows that the churches are further out of step with how men and women relate to each other and how society sees marriage.” Ah. The definitive non-theocracy. Well done. The Catholic Church has an opinion in a country which has set out to guarantee the separation of church and state. Laïcité You'll have to do better than that. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 4, 2023 18:28:15 GMT
Please provide a link to the example you have. I already stated the context I was referring to. Go back and re read. (I should highlight, to be clear, not ALL religious groups were trying to impose their will on the non-religious. There was no consistent view. Some held the view (correctly) that as the proposed amendment was just about civil marriage that it had nothing to do with them and their definition would be unchanging. But the groups that did oppose it, primarily the ACL, absolutely wanted the non-religious to adhere to religious doctrine.) Haha. "The context". Haha. Where is the link? |
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 4, 2023 18:32:56 GMT
"churches trying to stop secular marriage to those they won't marry" Where does this happen, outside of theocracies? Anywhere where gay marriage has been voted on or proposed and passed, churches have objected to it. Pish. Unless you're talking about church marriage. Plenty of secular people object to gay, let alone gay marriage. You've just got a throbber for organised religion in the way that Jeremy Clarkson does about electric cars. |
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voice
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Post by voice on Oct 4, 2023 18:42:29 GMT
Nah, to pretend churches don't try to except political power to stop policy they think goes against there beliefs is a denial of reality.
Many in the US religious right want the US to become a theocracy, they made abortion illegal for everyone cos they said it goes against their beliefs, there are cases before their Supreme Court trying to make gay marriage illegal again cos it's against their beliefs, it's always religion trying to impose their beliefs on other believers or non believers.
Most rational people accept religious people can follow what ever beliefs they want and live by those riles, though it's not reciprocal.
And my only beef with religion is them constantly trying to impose their beliefs on the rest of us. You can be as religious as you like, but keep it to yourselves and don't expect me to follow your religions rules.
Not sure why you can't grasp that, I've said it often enough
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rick49
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Post by rick49 on Oct 4, 2023 18:51:24 GMT
can someone explain how an incorporeal (without physicality) being can shag someone? and when and how did science disprove Heaven when Heaven does'nt reside in our universe?
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 4, 2023 19:10:45 GMT
Nah, to pretend churches don't try to except political power to stop policy they think goes against there beliefs is a denial of reality. Many in the US religious right want the US to become a theocracy, they made abortion illegal for everyone cos they said it goes against their beliefs, there are cases before their Supreme Court trying to make gay marriage illegal again cos it's against their beliefs, it's always religion trying to impose their beliefs on other believers or non believers. Most rational people accept religious people can follow what ever beliefs they want and live by those riles, though it's not reciprocal. And my only beef with religion is them constantly trying to impose their beliefs on the rest of us. You can be as religious as you like, but keep it to yourselves and don't expect me to follow your religions rules. Not sure why you can't grasp that, I've said it often enough You say a lot of things too often. What you don't do is listen. Their evangelism is no different to your own. They have no more power in most meaningful democracies than the lumped secular, so quit whining about it. It's not like they've a actualy stopped gay people from "marrying". QED. |
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voice
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Post by voice on Oct 4, 2023 19:36:36 GMT
Now there's irony for you.
They stopped it for years and have stopped women having control of their own bodies, and are trying their hardest to end it again. Your inability to accept nuance is a real handicap.
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flatandy
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Post by flatandy on Oct 4, 2023 19:38:25 GMT
It's not like they've a actualy stopped gay people from "marrying". QED. They did stop it for quite a lot of years, and still do in lots of countries. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 4, 2023 19:53:20 GMT
Now there's irony for you. They stopped it for years and have stopped women having control of their own bodies, and are trying their hardest to end it again. Your inability to accept nuance is a real handicap. Where's the nuance there? They have a position and defended it. Ultimately, secular democracy won. What you're advocating is totalitarianism. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 4, 2023 19:55:56 GMT
It's not like they've a actualy stopped gay people from "marrying". QED. They did stop it for quite a lot of years, and still do in lots of countries. See above. They only do that with popular support and, I would argue, that's fine by the people of that culture. It's not just religious folk that don't like homos e.g. I have met many men who profess profound atheism and whose attitudes to gay people and abortion have been far from progressive. |
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voice
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Post by voice on Oct 4, 2023 20:00:47 GMT
Now there's irony for you. They stopped it for years and have stopped women having control of their own bodies, and are trying their hardest to end it again. Your inability to accept nuance is a real handicap. Where's the nuance there? They have a position and defended it. Ultimately, secular democracy won. What you're advocating is totalitarianism. Wow, you're in deep. Time to stop digging Why is my desire not to either impose my views on how they follow their religion and to have them stop trying impose their beliefs on the lives of the rest of us totalitarianism exactly? |
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 4, 2023 20:05:19 GMT
Maybe read back to your previous statements, which you appear to be rapidly rowing away from.
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