voice
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Post by voice on Oct 4, 2023 20:26:36 GMT
what, this one perhaps?
I don't think churches are or should be forced to offer religious marriages to those they don't want to, same as I object to churches trying to stop secular marriage to those they won't marry.
I've nothing against anyone believing what ever they like as long as they keep it to themselves and don't try to make others live by their beliefs and I object strongly to them being involved in policy and so on.
or perhaps this?
You can be as religious as you like, but keep it to yourselves and don't expect me to follow your religions rules.
or maybe this one?
Religion may have had some roll in marriage for a while, but people got married before modern ones came along and many have secular marriages, not civil partnerships, so trying to say marriage should only ever be what a religion defines it yo be, and have a veto over anyone nit wanting their narrow version of a marriage is a great example of why religion should have no say over policy and governance
There is only one response really.
Religion- my religion says gay marriage is wrong
Me- well don't get gay married
Religon- my religion says gay marriage is wrong so no one can get gay married
Me - fcuk off
or could it be this one?
As I've said many times, you wanna believe in God's, deities, tooth fries, sasquatch, go right ahead, hope it fills a void and makes you happy, but it's best treated like sex, perfectly fine in the privacy of your own home, but it has no place in the public sphere, policy and governance.
Care to point out the totalitarian content on my sentiments.
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 4, 2023 21:01:41 GMT
See how difficult it is to dig yourself out of statements about 'imaginary friends"?
Now, what you're still not grasping is the relative influence that you're assigning to the various churches: you can't have your cake and eat it. Take the French example: they have literally no more power, by state constitution, than your run-of-the-moulin fleabag. Haven't for centuries. And yet you rale against their actions in defence of their own sincerely held beliefs?
You're dug your own grave here.
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voice
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Post by voice on Oct 4, 2023 21:54:23 GMT
Wow it's like interacting with a very poorly programed chat bot.
If you can't point to anything I've said that shows totalitarianism you should have just said so. Blustering about France (good on them btw) while ignoring all the places referenced shows just how little you have to offer.
Oh and just cos I think believing in gods, spirits dieties, tooth fairies or goblins is a bit still, I have no issue with those who do and would not put any barriers to them enjoying their pursuit of those things.
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Post by Repat Van on Oct 4, 2023 21:59:31 GMT
See how difficult it is to dig yourself out of statements about 'imaginary friends"? Now, what you're still not grasping is the relative influence that you're assigning to the various churches: you can't have your cake and eat it. Take the French example: they have literally no more power, by state constitution, than your run-of-the-moulin fleabag. Haven't for centuries. And yet you rale against their actions in defence of their own sincerely held beliefs? You're dug your own grave here. They weren’t protecting their “sincerely held beliefs” though were they? They were lobbying for their “sincerely held beliefs” to influence the law in such a way that those “sincerely held beliefs” would adversely impact those not of their faith. |
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Post by Repat Van on Oct 4, 2023 22:01:29 GMT
amp.france24.com/en/20121105-french-catholic-church-weighs-against-gay-marriage-law-family-adoption“The French Catholic Church has joined a chorus of opposition against proposals to legalise same-sex marriage and adoption, which were a cornerstone of Socialist President François Hollande’s election campaign. The bill is due to be presented at Wednesday’s cabinet meeting -- but the parliamentary debates on a law that should have been a walk-through for the president have been postponed to January amid stronger than expected opposition. Over the weekend Cardinal André Vingt-Trois (pictured), head of the French Council of Bishops, branded gay marriage “the ultimate deceit”. In a sermon at pilgrimage site Lourdes in south-west France, he defended the sanctity of heterosexual parenthood and insisted that children “should be raised with a mother and a father as their reference point”. The Catholic Church’s stance on the issue follows similar statements from the head of France’s Protestant congregation, the leader of the French Council of the Muslim Faith and also France’s Chief Rabbi Gilles Bernheim. “[In the context of same-sex couples] the arguments about equality, love and the right to have children do not justify them being written into law,” Bernheim wrote in right-wing daily Le Figaro. Church ‘straying from its role’ France’s ruling Socialists hit back immediately. National Assembly Member Erwann Binet, who authored the bill, called on the Catholic Church to “open its eyes to the realities of the families that constitute the modern society -- single parent families, families headed by same-sex couples, families where couples are remarried.” Socialist Party Spokesman David Assouline accused the Church of “straying from its role in opposing the will of the legislature.” “The people voted for the Socialists in universal suffrage,” he said adding that it was not the Church’s place to criticise the government “when it comes to the issue of civil marriage in our secular state.” www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/as-australia-votes-on-same-sex-marriage-church-leaders-fight-back/2017/10/28/bd442722-b82c-11e7-9e58-e6288544af98_story.html“Many religious leaders see same-sex marriage as likely to weaken churches and lead to a more secular society. Led by Australia’s two biggest churches, the Catholics and the Anglicans, a well-organized and funded campaign has been trying to mobilize supporters. It is a moment where the influence of Christianity hits a threshold,” said Peter Sherlock, president of the Melbourne-based University of Divinity. “It shows that the churches are further out of step with how men and women relate to each other and how society sees marriage.” Ah. The definitive non-theocracy. Well done. The Catholic Church has an opinion in a country which has set out to guarantee the separation of church and state. Laïcité You'll have to do better than that. You said “churches trying to stop secular marriage being offered to people they would not marry”. That is exactly what campaigning against law changes is doing. You’re wrong, you know it. It’s just your sickness prevents you from acknowledging that. |
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Post by Repat Van on Oct 4, 2023 22:03:08 GMT
Nah, to pretend churches don't try to except political power to stop policy they think goes against there beliefs is a denial of reality. Many in the US religious right want the US to become a theocracy, they made abortion illegal for everyone cos they said it goes against their beliefs, there are cases before their Supreme Court trying to make gay marriage illegal again cos it's against their beliefs, it's always religion trying to impose their beliefs on other believers or non believers. Most rational people accept religious people can follow what ever beliefs they want and live by those riles, though it's not reciprocal. And my only beef with religion is them constantly trying to impose their beliefs on the rest of us. You can be as religious as you like, but keep it to yourselves and don't expect me to follow your religions rules. Not sure why you can't grasp that, I've said it often enough You say a lot of things too often. What you don't do is listen. Their evangelism is no different to your own. They have no more power in most meaningful democracies than the lumped secular, so quit whining about it. It's not like they've a actualy stopped gay people from "marrying". QED. The point is they tried to stop gay people marrying. They tried to impose their faith on others. |
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Post by Repat Van on Oct 4, 2023 22:05:12 GMT
I already stated the context I was referring to. Go back and re read. (I should highlight, to be clear, not ALL religious groups were trying to impose their will on the non-religious. There was no consistent view. Some held the view (correctly) that as the proposed amendment was just about civil marriage that it had nothing to do with them and their definition would be unchanging. But the groups that did oppose it, primarily the ACL, absolutely wanted the non-religious to adhere to religious doctrine.) Haha. "The context". Haha. Where is the link? The Australian Marriage Equality campaign. You know when religious organisations funded an intense “vote - no” campaign. A link to which is on the post you skim read and did not understand. Watching you be blatantly wrong yet refuse to admit because you have a severe mental health issue in this area is really rather funny. |
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Post by Repat Van on Oct 4, 2023 22:06:36 GMT
Anywhere where gay marriage has been voted on or proposed and passed, churches have objected to it. Pish. Unless you're talking about church marriage. Plenty of secular people object to gay, let alone gay marriage. You've just got a throbber for organised religion in the way that Jeremy Clarkson does about electric cars. In France and Australia religious groups campaigned against changes to secular marriage (which is France is the only form of legal larriage) which would allow gay people to marry. |
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Post by Repat Van on Oct 4, 2023 22:07:53 GMT
Nah, to pretend churches don't try to except political power to stop policy they think goes against there beliefs is a denial of reality. Many in the US religious right want the US to become a theocracy, they made abortion illegal for everyone cos they said it goes against their beliefs, there are cases before their Supreme Court trying to make gay marriage illegal again cos it's against their beliefs, it's always religion trying to impose their beliefs on other believers or non believers. Most rational people accept religious people can follow what ever beliefs they want and live by those riles, though it's not reciprocal. And my only beef with religion is them constantly trying to impose their beliefs on the rest of us. You can be as religious as you like, but keep it to yourselves and don't expect me to follow your religions rules. Not sure why you can't grasp that, I've said it often enough Oh yes abortion - another good example of religious groups trying to impose their will on the non religious. In the US but also, until the referendum, also in Ireland. |
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rick49
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Post by rick49 on Oct 5, 2023 2:47:53 GMT
and what gives with all the talk of Church's denying to marry gays? they are following their beliefs. they don't have to ignore/break/deny their beliefs just because some wokers demand they do. the wokers want Church's and Christians to deny their beliefs. if two lesbians or bum humpers want to get married, there are plenty of secular options.
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voice
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Post by voice on Oct 5, 2023 3:02:44 GMT
Yeah, we get it, you're an idiot, you don't need to continue showing us that.
Again, and cos I know you're a hard of thinker, I'll put it very simply for you
Churches who don't want to gay marry, then don't gay marry, no one's gonna force you to.
Churches who then want to stop all gay martiages, even for those who dont believe as they do, fcuk off.
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 5, 2023 7:56:43 GMT
Wow it's like interacting with a very poorly programed chat bot. If you can't point to anything I've said that shows totalitarianism you should have just said so. Blustering about France (good on them btw) while ignoring all the places referenced shows just how little you have to offer. Oh and just cos I think believing in gods, spirits dieties, tooth fairies or goblins is a bit still, I have no issue with those who do and would not put any barriers to them enjoying their pursuit of those things. I've just done that. Have another go Jezza. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 5, 2023 8:02:20 GMT
Pish. Unless you're talking about church marriage. Plenty of secular people object to gay, let alone gay marriage. You've just got a throbber for organised religion in the way that Jeremy Clarkson does about electric cars. In France and Australia religious groups campaigned against changes to secular marriage (which is France is the only form of legal larriage) which would allow gay people to marry. Yes, they have stood by their values, with no more power than a secular group or individual (there being no religious allotment in Australian or French political representation). You keep making my point for me, as does Voice, who takes a view that the churches can have their opinion but must not use political power to impose, which in these examples, they cannot. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 5, 2023 8:08:03 GMT
Haha. "The context". Haha. Where is the link? The Australian Marriage Equality campaign. You know when religious organisations funded an intense “vote - no” campaign. A link to which is on the post you skim read and did not understand. Watching you be blatantly wrong yet refuse to admit because you have a severe mental health issue in this area is really rather funny. Do you take a similarly prescriptive stance on the RSPCA? You're all over the place here. |
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mids
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Post by mids on Oct 5, 2023 8:10:03 GMT
I see the left are thrashing around like a perch on a canal bank.
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 5, 2023 8:24:09 GMT
Sadly, they lack the mental agility of even the most basic freshwater denizens.
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Post by Repat Van on Oct 5, 2023 10:52:06 GMT
and what gives with all the talk of Church's denying to marry gays? they are following their beliefs. they don't have to ignore/break/deny their beliefs just because some wokers demand they do. the wokers want Church's and Christians to deny their beliefs. if two lesbians or bum humpers want to get married, there are plenty of secular options. Jesus be a f**k**g wheel. Learn to read. Nobody, NOT ONE PERSON on this thread is talking about requiring churches to conduct same sex marriages. Not one person. This is about religious groups lobbying to prevent governments allowing same-sex civil marriages. This is saying, just as they don’t want government dictating to them who they can and cannot marry - they should completely butt out of discussion on same sex civil marriages. To be specific we are not required to adhere to their religious rules. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 5, 2023 12:25:12 GMT
"they should completely butt out of discussion on same sex civil marriages."
Fascism, right there.
Also, "butt out".
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rick49
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Post by rick49 on Oct 6, 2023 4:53:05 GMT
I see the left are thrashing around like a perch on a canal bank. or andy capp. |
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Post by Repat Van on Oct 6, 2023 7:30:38 GMT
You still not learned to read I take it?
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