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Post by unclejunior on Oct 13, 2024 15:48:56 GMT
More than 10 years old now .. but as true as ever…..
A letter written by a non-Jewish Scottish professor to his students who voted to boycott Israel.
It’s a response from Dr. Denis MacEoin to the motion put forward by The Edinburgh Student’s Association to boycott all things Israeli, in which they claim Israel is under an apartheid regime.
Denis is an expert in Middle Eastern affairs and was a senior editor of the Middle East Quarterly. Here’s his letter to the students.
TO: The Committee Edinburgh University Student Association.
May I be permitted to say a few words to members of the EUSA? I am an Edinburgh graduate (MA 1975) who studied Persian, Arabic and Islamic History in Buccleuch Place under William Montgomery Watt and Laurence Elwell Sutton, two of Britain ‘s great Middle East experts in their day. I later went on to do a PhD at Cambridge and to teach Arabic and Islamic Studies at Newcastle University . Naturally, I am the author of several books and hundreds of articles in this field. I say all that to show that I am well informed in Middle Eastern affairs and that, for that reason, I am shocked and disheartened by the EUSA motion and vote.
I am shocked for a simple reason: there is not and has never been a system of apartheid in Israel .
That is not my opinion, that is fact that can be tested against reality by any Edinburgh student, should he or she choose to visit Israel to see for themselves. Let me spell this out, since I have the impression that those members of EUSA who voted for this motion are absolutely clueless in matters concerning Israel, and that they are, in all likelihood, the victims of extremely biased propaganda coming from the anti-Israel lobby.
Being anti-Israel is not in itself objectionable. But I’m not talking about ordinary criticism of Israel . I’m speaking of a hatred that permits itself no boundaries in the lies and myths it pours out. Thus, Israel is repeatedly referred to as a “Nazi” state. In what sense is this true, even as a metaphor? Where are the Israeli concentration camps? The einzatsgruppen? The SS? The Nuremberg Laws? The Final Solution? None of these things nor anything remotely resembling them exists in Israel , precisely because the Jews, more than anyone on earth, understand what Nazism stood for.
It is claimed that there has been an Israeli Holocaust in Gaza (or elsewhere). Where? When? No honest historian would treat that claim with anything but the contempt it deserves. But calling Jews Nazis and saying they have committed a Holocaust is as basic a way to subvert historical fact as anything I can think of.
Likewise apartheid. For apartheid to exist, there would have to be a situation that closely resembled how things were in South Africa under the apartheid regime. Unfortunately for those who believe this, a weekend in any part of Israel would be enough to show how ridiculous the claim is.
That a body of university students actually fell for this and voted on it is a sad comment on the state of modern education. The most obvious focus for apartheid would be the country’s 20% Arab population. Under Israeli law, Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jews or anyone else; Muslims have the same rights as Jews or Christians; Baha’is, severely persecuted in Iran, flourish in Israel, where they have their world center; Ahmadi Muslims, severely persecuted in Pakistan and elsewhere, are kept safe by Israel; the holy places of all religions are protected under a specific Israeli law. Arabs form 20% of the university population (an exact echo of their percentage in the general population).
In Iran , the Bahai’s (the largest religious minority) are forbidden to study in any university or to run their own universities: why aren’t your members boycotting Iran ? Arabs in Israel can go anywhere they want, unlike blacks in apartheid South Africa . They use public transport, they eat in restaurants, they go to swimming pools, they use libraries, they go to cinemas alongside Jews – something no blacks were able to do in South Africa.
Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank.
On the same wards, in the same operating theatres.
In Israel , women have the same rights as men: there is no gender apartheid.
Gay men and women face no restrictions, and Palestinian gays often escape into Israel, knowing they may be killed at home.
It seems bizarre to me that LGBT groups call for a boycott of Israel and say nothing about countries like Iran , where gay men are hanged or stoned to death. That illustrates a mindset that beggars belief.
Intelligent students thinking it’s better to be silent about regimes that kill gay people, but good to condemn the only country in the Middle East that rescues and protects gay people. Is that supposed to be a sick joke?
University is supposed to be about learning to use your brain, to think rationally, to examine evidence, to reach conclusions based on solid evidence, to compare sources, to weigh up one view against one or more others. If the best Edinburgh can now produce are students who have no idea how to do any of these things, then the future is bleak.
I do not object to well-documented criticism of Israel . I do object when supposedly intelligent people single the Jewish state out above states that are horrific in their treatment of their populations. We are going through the biggest upheaval in the Middle East since the 7th and 8th centuries, and it’s clear that Arabs and Iranians are rebelling against terrifying regimes that fight back by killing their own citizens.
Israeli citizens, Jews and Arabs alike, do not rebel (though they are free to protest). Yet Edinburgh students mount no demonstrations and call for no boycotts against Libya , Bahrain , Saudi Arabia , Yemen , and Iran . They prefer to make false accusations against one of the world’s freest countries, the only country in the Middle East that has taken in Darfur refugees, the only country in the Middle East that gives refuge to gay men and women, the only country in the Middle East that protects the Bahai’s…. Need I go on?
The imbalance is perceptible, and it sheds no credit on anyone who voted for this boycott. I ask you to show some common sense. Get information from the Israeli embassy. Ask for some speakers. Listen to more than one side.
Do not make your minds up until you have given a fair hearing to both parties. You have a duty to your students, and that is to protect them from one-sided argument.
They are not at university to be propagandized. And they are certainly not there to be tricked into anti-Semitism by punishing one country among all the countries of the world, which happens to be the only Jewish state. If there had been a single Jewish state in the 1930’s (which, sadly, there was not), don’t you think Adolf Hitler would have decided to boycott it?
Your generation has a duty to ensure that the perennial racism of anti-Semitism never sets down roots among you. Today, however, there are clear signs that it has done so and is putting down more. You have a chance to avert a very great evil, simply by using reason and a sense of fair play. Please tell me that this makes sense. I have given you some of the evidence.
It’s up to you to find out more.
Yours sincerely,
Denis MacEoin
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voice
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Post by voice on Oct 13, 2024 15:58:46 GMT
Bibi is wanting no one to witness what he's planning next. He must really fear what the prosecutors have on him, fancy starting multiple wars just to stay out of prison. Israel 'forcibly' enters UN compound, as Netanyahu urges peacekeepers to leave published at 16:53 British Summer Time 16:53 BST Matt Murphy Live editor We're now pausing our live coverage. Here are the main stories from the Middle East today. The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil) has said the main gate of one of its positions has been "destroyed" by two Israeli tanks. 15 peacekeepers have reportedly been injured by smoke from rounds fired by Israeli tanks following the incident, the statement said, which took place in the early hours of Sunday morning. The clash follows the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's latest demand that the UN withdraw its peacekeeping force from southern Lebanon, where several members of the multinational force have been injured in recent days In a speech posted to social media, Netanyahu said Unifil must to withdraw from the area, claiming its forces were being used as "hostages" by Hezbollah Meanwhile, the US says it will send fresh air defence batteries to Israel to shield it from what te Pentagon called "unprecedented attacks" Elsewhere, in Gaza, images this morning showed displaced Palestinians fleeing the north with evacuation orders issued for the area over the last week. In a statement this morning, the IDF said it attacked 40 targets in the Gaza Strip in the preceding 24 hours. According to the daily update from the Hamas-run health ministry, at least 42,227 people have been killed in Israeli attacks in Gaza since October 7 last year. www.bbc.com/news/live/c80r2y47rz4t |
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mids
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Post by mids on Oct 13, 2024 16:02:41 GMT
More than 10 years old now .. but as true as ever….. A letter written by a non-Jewish Scottish professor to his students who voted to boycott Israel. It’s a response from Dr. Denis MacEoin to the motion put forward by The Edinburgh Student’s Association to boycott all things Israeli, in which they claim Israel is under an apartheid regime. Denis is an expert in Middle Eastern affairs and was a senior editor of the Middle East Quarterly. Here’s his letter to the students. TO: The Committee Edinburgh University Student Association. May I be permitted to say a few words to members of the EUSA? I am an Edinburgh graduate (MA 1975) who studied Persian, Arabic and Islamic History in Buccleuch Place under William Montgomery Watt and Laurence Elwell Sutton, two of Britain ‘s great Middle East experts in their day. I later went on to do a PhD at Cambridge and to teach Arabic and Islamic Studies at Newcastle University . Naturally, I am the author of several books and hundreds of articles in this field. I say all that to show that I am well informed in Middle Eastern affairs and that, for that reason, I am shocked and disheartened by the EUSA motion and vote. I am shocked for a simple reason: there is not and has never been a system of apartheid in Israel . That is not my opinion, that is fact that can be tested against reality by any Edinburgh student, should he or she choose to visit Israel to see for themselves. Let me spell this out, since I have the impression that those members of EUSA who voted for this motion are absolutely clueless in matters concerning Israel, and that they are, in all likelihood, the victims of extremely biased propaganda coming from the anti-Israel lobby. Being anti-Israel is not in itself objectionable. But I’m not talking about ordinary criticism of Israel . I’m speaking of a hatred that permits itself no boundaries in the lies and myths it pours out. Thus, Israel is repeatedly referred to as a “Nazi” state. In what sense is this true, even as a metaphor? Where are the Israeli concentration camps? The einzatsgruppen? The SS? The Nuremberg Laws? The Final Solution? None of these things nor anything remotely resembling them exists in Israel , precisely because the Jews, more than anyone on earth, understand what Nazism stood for. It is claimed that there has been an Israeli Holocaust in Gaza (or elsewhere). Where? When? No honest historian would treat that claim with anything but the contempt it deserves. But calling Jews Nazis and saying they have committed a Holocaust is as basic a way to subvert historical fact as anything I can think of. Likewise apartheid. For apartheid to exist, there would have to be a situation that closely resembled how things were in South Africa under the apartheid regime. Unfortunately for those who believe this, a weekend in any part of Israel would be enough to show how ridiculous the claim is. That a body of university students actually fell for this and voted on it is a sad comment on the state of modern education. The most obvious focus for apartheid would be the country’s 20% Arab population. Under Israeli law, Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jews or anyone else; Muslims have the same rights as Jews or Christians; Baha’is, severely persecuted in Iran, flourish in Israel, where they have their world center; Ahmadi Muslims, severely persecuted in Pakistan and elsewhere, are kept safe by Israel; the holy places of all religions are protected under a specific Israeli law. Arabs form 20% of the university population (an exact echo of their percentage in the general population). In Iran , the Bahai’s (the largest religious minority) are forbidden to study in any university or to run their own universities: why aren’t your members boycotting Iran ? Arabs in Israel can go anywhere they want, unlike blacks in apartheid South Africa . They use public transport, they eat in restaurants, they go to swimming pools, they use libraries, they go to cinemas alongside Jews – something no blacks were able to do in South Africa. Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank. On the same wards, in the same operating theatres. In Israel , women have the same rights as men: there is no gender apartheid. Gay men and women face no restrictions, and Palestinian gays often escape into Israel, knowing they may be killed at home. It seems bizarre to me that LGBT groups call for a boycott of Israel and say nothing about countries like Iran , where gay men are hanged or stoned to death. That illustrates a mindset that beggars belief. Intelligent students thinking it’s better to be silent about regimes that kill gay people, but good to condemn the only country in the Middle East that rescues and protects gay people. Is that supposed to be a sick joke? University is supposed to be about learning to use your brain, to think rationally, to examine evidence, to reach conclusions based on solid evidence, to compare sources, to weigh up one view against one or more others. If the best Edinburgh can now produce are students who have no idea how to do any of these things, then the future is bleak. I do not object to well-documented criticism of Israel . I do object when supposedly intelligent people single the Jewish state out above states that are horrific in their treatment of their populations. We are going through the biggest upheaval in the Middle East since the 7th and 8th centuries, and it’s clear that Arabs and Iranians are rebelling against terrifying regimes that fight back by killing their own citizens. Israeli citizens, Jews and Arabs alike, do not rebel (though they are free to protest). Yet Edinburgh students mount no demonstrations and call for no boycotts against Libya , Bahrain , Saudi Arabia , Yemen , and Iran . They prefer to make false accusations against one of the world’s freest countries, the only country in the Middle East that has taken in Darfur refugees, the only country in the Middle East that gives refuge to gay men and women, the only country in the Middle East that protects the Bahai’s…. Need I go on? The imbalance is perceptible, and it sheds no credit on anyone who voted for this boycott. I ask you to show some common sense. Get information from the Israeli embassy. Ask for some speakers. Listen to more than one side. Do not make your minds up until you have given a fair hearing to both parties. You have a duty to your students, and that is to protect them from one-sided argument. They are not at university to be propagandized. And they are certainly not there to be tricked into anti-Semitism by punishing one country among all the countries of the world, which happens to be the only Jewish state. If there had been a single Jewish state in the 1930’s (which, sadly, there was not), don’t you think Adolf Hitler would have decided to boycott it? Your generation has a duty to ensure that the perennial racism of anti-Semitism never sets down roots among you. Today, however, there are clear signs that it has done so and is putting down more. You have a chance to avert a very great evil, simply by using reason and a sense of fair play. Please tell me that this makes sense. I have given you some of the evidence. It’s up to you to find out more. Yours sincerely, Denis MacEoin Utterly brilliant and massively spot on. Israel- a shining beacon of tolerance and compassion. |
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mids
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Post by mids on Oct 13, 2024 16:08:01 GMT
Poofs. "Hezbollah militants are fleeing southern Lebanon, offering limited resistance to the Israeli ground invasion. Fighters are said to have “left the area” without demonstrating “meaningful defensive operations”, according to the Institute of the Study of War (ISW), a major conflict think tank. Sources in Israel told The Telegraph that months of pre-invasion raids into Lebanon had helped push some of the group northwards, while the bombing campaign and pager attacks were also forcing some to flee. But the ISW said it was surprised by evidence from the early stages of the invasion showing an unwillingness to confront and fight Israeli troops. A report by the Washington-based think tank said: “Hezbollah fighters do not appear to be defending against Israeli forces in these [southern] villages as the Israeli forces have consistently encountered weapons caches and infrastructure formerly used by Hezbollah fighters that left the area”." www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/13/hezbollah-fleeing-israeli-ground-assault-without-fight/ |
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 13, 2024 16:37:56 GMT
The ISW. They're a bit shite. Also, run by a Jewish chick. It started out quite good, especially when we didn't have much to go on in the Uke war, but it's really not got much to say for itself, and what little it does have to say, is grossly over-padded by staff college "expert speak" which just sounds gay.
Of course, not hanging around to get pulverised by the SS tribute act that is the IDF, is a perfectly rational military strategy. Israel is still losing this, but doesn't have the balls, or the brains, to recognise that.
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 13, 2024 16:43:11 GMT
It's an interesting thing, being a consultant Johnny. You would think that the US chiefs of staff wouldn't need to employ a military historian with no military training, and yet we often see this sort of thing in this, and other, spheres. On one hand, it's good to have a fresh perspective, but I suspect it’s more of a buffer if things go wrong.
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mids
New Member
Posts: 60,990
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Post by mids on Oct 13, 2024 17:07:58 GMT
Although the Hezbz have just had their arses handed to them by a bunch of bespectacled nebbish gingers.
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 13, 2024 17:43:02 GMT
Game of two halves.
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mids
New Member
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Post by mids on Oct 13, 2024 17:52:06 GMT
Game of two halvas.
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voice
New Member
Goals are a form of self inflicted slavery
Posts: 41,222
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Post by voice on Oct 13, 2024 19:43:54 GMT
Its telling though, after a year of slaughter and destruction in Gazza, Israel are no closer to snuffing out Hamas then they were at the beginning. As for Hezbz, they beat Israel last time for much the same reason they'll probably beat them this time, Israel, for its military power simply can't bomb away the ideas of those who oppose them, unless they plan to kill every single Palestinian, a kind of final solution, then those who are left are still going to want freedom from the Israeli jackboot on their neck and as such will always be resistive if still allowed to live in the ghettoes provided for them, or from over the boarder in adjoining countries.
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mids
New Member
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Post by mids on Oct 13, 2024 20:00:24 GMT
Face it, you're crying because your boys in Hamas and Hezbollah have lost.
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Post by Repat Van on Oct 13, 2024 20:57:53 GMT
More than 10 years old now .. but as true as ever….. A letter written by a non-Jewish Scottish professor to his students who voted to boycott Israel. It’s a response from Dr. Denis MacEoin to the motion put forward by The Edinburgh Student’s Association to boycott all things Israeli, in which they claim Israel is under an apartheid regime. Denis is an expert in Middle Eastern affairs and was a senior editor of the Middle East Quarterly. Here’s his letter to the students. TO: The Committee Edinburgh University Student Association. May I be permitted to say a few words to members of the EUSA? I am an Edinburgh graduate (MA 1975) who studied Persian, Arabic and Islamic History in Buccleuch Place under William Montgomery Watt and Laurence Elwell Sutton, two of Britain ‘s great Middle East experts in their day. I later went on to do a PhD at Cambridge and to teach Arabic and Islamic Studies at Newcastle University . Naturally, I am the author of several books and hundreds of articles in this field. I say all that to show that I am well informed in Middle Eastern affairs and that, for that reason, I am shocked and disheartened by the EUSA motion and vote. I am shocked for a simple reason: there is not and has never been a system of apartheid in Israel . That is not my opinion, that is fact that can be tested against reality by any Edinburgh student, should he or she choose to visit Israel to see for themselves. Let me spell this out, since I have the impression that those members of EUSA who voted for this motion are absolutely clueless in matters concerning Israel, and that they are, in all likelihood, the victims of extremely biased propaganda coming from the anti-Israel lobby. Being anti-Israel is not in itself objectionable. But I’m not talking about ordinary criticism of Israel . I’m speaking of a hatred that permits itself no boundaries in the lies and myths it pours out. Thus, Israel is repeatedly referred to as a “Nazi” state. In what sense is this true, even as a metaphor? Where are the Israeli concentration camps? The einzatsgruppen? The SS? The Nuremberg Laws? The Final Solution? None of these things nor anything remotely resembling them exists in Israel , precisely because the Jews, more than anyone on earth, understand what Nazism stood for. It is claimed that there has been an Israeli Holocaust in Gaza (or elsewhere). Where? When? No honest historian would treat that claim with anything but the contempt it deserves. But calling Jews Nazis and saying they have committed a Holocaust is as basic a way to subvert historical fact as anything I can think of. Likewise apartheid. For apartheid to exist, there would have to be a situation that closely resembled how things were in South Africa under the apartheid regime. Unfortunately for those who believe this, a weekend in any part of Israel would be enough to show how ridiculous the claim is. That a body of university students actually fell for this and voted on it is a sad comment on the state of modern education. The most obvious focus for apartheid would be the country’s 20% Arab population. Under Israeli law, Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jews or anyone else; Muslims have the same rights as Jews or Christians; Baha’is, severely persecuted in Iran, flourish in Israel, where they have their world center; Ahmadi Muslims, severely persecuted in Pakistan and elsewhere, are kept safe by Israel; the holy places of all religions are protected under a specific Israeli law. Arabs form 20% of the university population (an exact echo of their percentage in the general population). In Iran , the Bahai’s (the largest religious minority) are forbidden to study in any university or to run their own universities: why aren’t your members boycotting Iran ? Arabs in Israel can go anywhere they want, unlike blacks in apartheid South Africa . They use public transport, they eat in restaurants, they go to swimming pools, they use libraries, they go to cinemas alongside Jews – something no blacks were able to do in South Africa. Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank. On the same wards, in the same operating theatres. In Israel , women have the same rights as men: there is no gender apartheid. Gay men and women face no restrictions, and Palestinian gays often escape into Israel, knowing they may be killed at home. It seems bizarre to me that LGBT groups call for a boycott of Israel and say nothing about countries like Iran , where gay men are hanged or stoned to death. That illustrates a mindset that beggars belief. Intelligent students thinking it’s better to be silent about regimes that kill gay people, but good to condemn the only country in the Middle East that rescues and protects gay people. Is that supposed to be a sick joke? University is supposed to be about learning to use your brain, to think rationally, to examine evidence, to reach conclusions based on solid evidence, to compare sources, to weigh up one view against one or more others. If the best Edinburgh can now produce are students who have no idea how to do any of these things, then the future is bleak. I do not object to well-documented criticism of Israel . I do object when supposedly intelligent people single the Jewish state out above states that are horrific in their treatment of their populations. We are going through the biggest upheaval in the Middle East since the 7th and 8th centuries, and it’s clear that Arabs and Iranians are rebelling against terrifying regimes that fight back by killing their own citizens. Israeli citizens, Jews and Arabs alike, do not rebel (though they are free to protest). Yet Edinburgh students mount no demonstrations and call for no boycotts against Libya , Bahrain , Saudi Arabia , Yemen , and Iran . They prefer to make false accusations against one of the world’s freest countries, the only country in the Middle East that has taken in Darfur refugees, the only country in the Middle East that gives refuge to gay men and women, the only country in the Middle East that protects the Bahai’s…. Need I go on? The imbalance is perceptible, and it sheds no credit on anyone who voted for this boycott. I ask you to show some common sense. Get information from the Israeli embassy. Ask for some speakers. Listen to more than one side. Do not make your minds up until you have given a fair hearing to both parties. You have a duty to your students, and that is to protect them from one-sided argument. They are not at university to be propagandized. And they are certainly not there to be tricked into anti-Semitism by punishing one country among all the countries of the world, which happens to be the only Jewish state. If there had been a single Jewish state in the 1930’s (which, sadly, there was not), don’t you think Adolf Hitler would have decided to boycott it? Your generation has a duty to ensure that the perennial racism of anti-Semitism never sets down roots among you. Today, however, there are clear signs that it has done so and is putting down more. You have a chance to avert a very great evil, simply by using reason and a sense of fair play. Please tell me that this makes sense. I have given you some of the evidence. It’s up to you to find out more. Yours sincerely, Denis MacEoin Imagine being a professor and confusing “anti-Israel” with “anti-Semitism”. There is nothing wrong with choosing to boycott a country. Also it’s categorically not true to claim people of certain religions do not hold greater rights in Israel. A Jewish convert from Brooklyn has greater rights to live and work in Israel than a Palestinian whose family was expelled from homes in what is now Israel. |
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Post by flatandy on Oct 13, 2024 22:33:17 GMT
Israel is still losing this, but doesn't have the balls, or the brains, to recognise that. It's true, but I think you have to split "Israel" even further at this point. Israel is losing this, but Netanyahu is "winning" on his own terms, which is all about keeping Israel in a state of crisis and war so the Knesset don't finally act against him and his appalling corruption. For him, blowing up the long standing relationship where the US looked after Israel is a price worth paying to keep himself out of Israel-Pokey. For Israel it's probably a long term utter disaster that will leave them as a friendless semi-Euroepan nation who everyone around them wants to take apart, like the Armenians. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Oct 16, 2024 19:46:13 GMT
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mids
New Member
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Post by mids on Oct 16, 2024 20:07:43 GMT
Peacekeepers my arse.
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mids
New Member
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Post by mids on Oct 16, 2024 20:08:03 GMT
Jewkeepers, more like.
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mids
New Member
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Post by mids on Oct 17, 2024 14:56:38 GMT
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mids
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Post by mids on Oct 18, 2024 7:43:51 GMT
The BBC are in mourning. "Killing Yahya Sinwar is Israel's biggest victory so far in the war against Hamas in Gaza. His death is a serious blow for Hamas, the organisation he turned into a fighting force that inflicted the biggest defeat on the state of Israel in its history. He was not killed in a planned special forces operation, but in a chance encounter with Israeli forces in Rafah in southern Gaza. A photo taken at the scene shows Sinwar, dressed in combat gear, lying dead in the rubble of a building that was hit by a tank shell. Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's prime minister, praised the soldiers and made clear that however big a victory, it was not the end of the war." www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm24q3204y3o |
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Post by Repat Van on Oct 18, 2024 8:48:00 GMT
“Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's prime minister, praised the soldiers and made clear that however big a victory, it was not the end of the war."
Yes, they haven’t fully ethnically cleansed Gaza and taken the land yet.
On they go.
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mids
New Member
Posts: 60,990
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Post by mids on Oct 18, 2024 8:48:43 GMT
Why do you hate Jews?
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