Caitlyn Jenner opposes trans girls in women's sports

[Marshall]

I still don’t understand why trans men competing in women’s sports is fine but what Rachel Dolezal did was not.

[Repat Van]

Jun 2, 2021 6:13:38 GMT ootlg said:

Jun 1, 2021 22:51:38 GMT Repat Van said:

Ask OneofThe - he started questioning people’s views on it based on their gender.

Which weirdly you did not have a problem with.

Really? So to coin your own phrase I now live rent-free in your head? You are obsessed with me?

This is the way you guys operate isn't it ... Someone suggests it's a bit bizarre to see Les Dawson in a pink lycra leotard competing against young girls, and you start screeching, gather your fellow harpies around you, and make accusations hoping to get someone damned on the grounds that z/h/e's not liberated enough?

Pffft... I dunno.

I see that age related memory loss is settling in.

[Repat Van]

Jun 2, 2021 6:38:48 GMT Marshall said:

I still don’t understand why trans men competing in women’s sports is fine but what Rachel Dolezal did was not.

There is loads of academic pieces on the science of gender identity vs. sex and, the impact of gender reassignment (through hormones) on athletic performance.

If you were genuinely interested (instead of asking disingenuous questions) you would have read up on it.

But very simply you’re comparing two things which are not comparable as ethnicity is an inheritance. Gender and gender identity is not.

Also, to be very clear - transgender men are NOT allowed to compete in women’s sports. Although ironically by a lot of people’s arguments they should be.

[mids]

Desegregate sport! One sport for all genders!

[perrykneeham]

Jun 2, 2021 7:27:36 GMT Repat Van said:

Jun 2, 2021 6:38:48 GMT Marshall said:

I still don’t understand why trans men competing in women’s sports is fine but what Rachel Dolezal did was not.

There is loads of academic pieces on the science of gender identity vs. sex and, the impact of gender reassignment (through hormones) on athletic performance.

If you were genuinely interested (instead of asking disingenuous questions) you would have read up on it.

But very simply you’re comparing two things which are not comparable as ethnicity is an inheritance. Gender and gender identity is not.

Also, to be very clear - transgender men are NOT allowed to compete in women’s sports. Although ironically by a lot of people’s arguments they should be.

Basically Marshall's got you cold here. Hence your accusation of a disingenuous question followed by a rambling disingenuous attempt at a counter. Biological males and females are born and remain so. They aren't competing with their psychological whims or disorders but their biologic bodies, no matter how mutilated they might be.

[Repat Van]

Jun 2, 2021 7:48:56 GMT perrykneeham said:

Jun 2, 2021 7:27:36 GMT Repat Van said:

There is loads of academic pieces on the science of gender identity vs. sex and, the impact of gender reassignment (through hormones) on athletic performance.

If you were genuinely interested (instead of asking disingenuous questions) you would have read up on it.

But very simply you’re comparing two things which are not comparable as ethnicity is an inheritance. Gender and gender identity is not.

Also, to be very clear - transgender men are NOT allowed to compete in women’s sports. Although ironically by a lot of people’s arguments they should be.

Basically Marshall's got you cold here. Hence your accusation of a disingenuous question followed by a rambling disingenuous attempt at a counter. Biological males and females are born and remain so. They aren't competing with their psychological whims or disorders but their biologic bodies, no matter how mutilated they might be.

Erm. Ok.

[mids]

"a rambling disingenuous attempt"

Nailed her. Well...

[perrykneeham]

Nailed. By Marshall.

Brilliant.

[ootlg]

Jun 2, 2021 7:24:21 GMT Repat Van said:

Jun 2, 2021 6:13:38 GMT ootlg said:

Really? So to coin your own phrase I now live rent-free in your head? You are obsessed with me?

This is the way you guys operate isn't it ... Someone suggests it's a bit bizarre to see Les Dawson in a pink lycra leotard competing against young girls, and you start screeching, gather your fellow harpies around you, and make accusations hoping to get someone damned on the grounds that z/h/e's not liberated enough?

Pffft... I dunno.

I see that age related memory loss is settling in.

Why, how old are you?

[flatandy]

Van has completely answered Marshall’s question, yet you all decided to ignore the content of it.

Although, as it happens, Rachel Dolezal is theoretically allowed to compete in sports too.

[voice]

What team does she play for and how is her participation effecting it?

[Marshall]

Jun 2, 2021 7:27:36 GMT Repat Van said:

Jun 2, 2021 6:38:48 GMT Marshall said:

I still don’t understand why trans men competing in women’s sports is fine but what Rachel Dolezal did was not.

There is loads of academic pieces on the science of gender identity vs. sex and, the impact of gender reassignment (through hormones) on athletic performance.

If you were genuinely interested (instead of asking disingenuous questions) you would have read up on it.

But very simply you’re comparing two things which are not comparable as ethnicity is an inheritance. Gender and gender identity is not.

Also, to be very clear - transgender men are NOT allowed to compete in women’s sports. Although ironically by a lot of people’s arguments they should be.

Why should inheritance matter? One has as much chance being born into the race of their choice as into the gender of their choice.

With your line of reasoning, you're assuming that there's a greater biological difference between a black woman and a white woman than there is between men and women, in which case I'd have to call you a racist(!).

[perrykneeham]

Ouch! Van's been nailed again. DP!

[voice]

Valentina Petrillo: 'Better to be a slow happy woman than a fast unhappy man'

Valentina Petrillo could this year become the first openly transgender woman to compete at the Paralympics. For the visually impaired Italian, selection for the national squad would be a dream come true - but she says she understands why other athletes may have doubts and questions about racing against her.

"I'm happy as a woman and running as a woman is all I want. I couldn't ask for more," says Valentina Petrillo.

"I've got a fire inside me, that pushes me. An emotional strength. Obviously, my body's not what it was at 20 when I was at my peak, but my happiness pushes me to go further, to go beyond my limits."

Passionate about running from an early age, Petrillo's aspirations were seemingly dashed at the age of 14, when she was diagnosed with Stargardt disease, a degenerative eye condition, for which there is no cure.

www.bbc.com/news/stories-57338207

[wetkingcanute]

It must be awful to be born the "wrong" sex. From an early age feel that you simply must change - not just wear drag but actually change your genitalia and take drugs to alter your hormones.

I am pleased that the NHS helps people become trans men and trans women.

But I do not think that trans women should compete in Women's sport. Play those sports by all means - but not compete. And it is because I care for women's sport that I think this.

Andy's argument against this point of view is that there are only a very few trans women competing so it doesn't matter.
This is a spurious argument in that it supports the tyranny of the minority over the majority.
As Spock maintained in Star Trek "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." And trans women's "right" to compete should not outweigh the rights of everyone else to a fair competition.

It must be heartbreaking for a girl / women to train for years to reach the top of her sport - maybe get into the Olympic team - only to be by past by a trans women who had the op half a year ago or so.

We ban sports men and women taking drugs because of the advantage it gives them so it seems to me obvious that we should not allow trans women to compete. And doubly so in contact sports.

I hope I've got this right! By Trans woman I mean someone who was born male and had an operation and treatment to become female.

[flatandy]

Jun 4, 2021 17:10:55 GMT wetkingcanute said:

Andy's argument against this point of view is that there are only a very few trans women competing so it doesn't matter.
This is a spurious argument in that it supports the tyranny of the minority over the majority.
As Spock maintained in Star Trek "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." And trans women's "right" to compete should not outweigh the rights of everyone else to a fair competition.

That's not really my argument. That's more by rebuttal of the argument that it completely distorts womens sport.

My main argument is that trans women are women and should be treated as women so they should be allowed to compete in womens sport like every other woman is.

My secondary argument is that the needs of the few - as I believe Kirk said - sometimes outweigh the needs of the many. In this case the "needs" of he (few) trans women is to not be considered "other". Othering of trans women seems to cause a lot of psychological harm. Whereas there's very little real harm done to the (many) cis women sportspeople by increasing the pool of competitors. Finishing 46th instead of 45th in a race is a less big deal than risking suicide because society ostracises you.

What happens next is that someone (OOTLG? Rick?) argues that womens sport is made a mockery of by having trans competitors and that all the dudes who used to lose decide to identify as trans women in order to win. This has not happened even though trans women have been allowed to compete in almost all womens sports for decades.

They then point to a single athlete in the New Zealand womens weightlifting team, and I point out that this is one woman and not an army, and she's not undergone gender reassignment in order to compete and it's not made a mockery of any event.

As it happens, I hope that thousands of trans women start competing in sport because I think everyone should be competing.

And as they make up about 0.5% of the population, you'd hope they'd win one in every 200 Olympic medals and so on.

But I also point out that it's likely to be less than that, that they will underperform the general population - this is because the surgery and the hormone therapy that goes with gender reassignment tends to make trans women weaker, and therefore likely to be less competitive.

[perrykneeham]

If that's your main argument, then we're all done here.

If you choose to take an esoteric philosophical position on it, like religious belief, then knock yourself out.

Biological women are born women and remain biologically women.

[flatandy]

I know you are, but what am I?

[perrykneeham]

Well, that might work if you weren't out voted almost everyone to two.

[flatandy]

You're taking the position that people who think they're women, who behave like women, who dress like women, who have the hormonal make up of women are, in fact, men.

And you're the one saying I'm dogmatic about it?

WKC three posts up said that he believed that trans women are women who've been dealt a crappy hand in life and who the NHS should support - and he's absolutely right about that.