Caitlyn Jenner opposes trans girls in women's sports

[Minge är en jävla besserwisser]

Well, thats just your circular logic. Clearly some women have lost out to trans women and it's only nothing to do with men because you say men are women because they think they are. Which is slightly the point. men can think they are women and that's what counts.

[mids]

Jun 4, 2021 19:32:58 GMT Marshall said:

I wonder what the rate of cervical cancer is for trans women.

Well whatever the rate is, I hope a lot of money is being invested in the treatment of it. To do otherwise would be transphobic.

[perrykneeham]

Jun 4, 2021 19:56:21 GMT flatandy said:

Except that's not the argument, of course.

Firstly, no women are getting ridden roughshod over.

Secondly, it's nothing to do with men.

So refreshing to hear the new church speaking out. Are you the Vicar of Glibly?

[Minge är en jävla besserwisser]

Of all the weirdest things in the whole set up was Caitlyn Jenner being voted woman of the year. Because it really needed a man to become a woman to show women how it was done and then all the men can cheer because we can do woman too, it's not that special and if you don't like us doing woman you're a TERF.

[Marshall]

Yes.
Also very weird that even conservative men are supporting women’s rights being infringed upon by men while liberal men are not (with the argument that someone’s feelings might get hurt!).

[Minge är en jävla besserwisser]

But then championing women's rights makes you a misogynist like Germaine Greer

[flatandy]

Which womens rights are being infringed upon? And, again, men aren't anything to do with this.

[Minge är en jävla besserwisser]

So it's only women's opinion that counts?

[Marshall]

Jun 4, 2021 21:23:14 GMT flatandy said:

And, again, men aren't anything to do with this.

Of course they are, it's the men you think magically turn into women.

You should be a Catholic with your unwavering belief in transubstantiation.

[perrykneeham]

Insubstantiation, more like.

[whiterum]

You're all starting too cockup big time, what a pack of fannies.

[perrykneeham]

Jun 5, 2021 7:09:19 GMT whiterum said:

You're all starting too cockup big time, what a pack of fannies.

It's a bit early to be on the sauce isn't it?

[whiterum]

No, it's called humour.

[perrykneeham]

Oh, fair enough. I thought you might be just coming in off an all-nighter.

[whiterum]

I wish.

[ootlg]

Jun 4, 2021 18:06:18 GMT flatandy said:

Jun 4, 2021 17:10:55 GMT wetkingcanute said:

Andy's argument against this point of view is that there are only a very few trans women competing so it doesn't matter.
This is a spurious argument in that it supports the tyranny of the minority over the majority.
As Spock maintained in Star Trek "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." And trans women's "right" to compete should not outweigh the rights of everyone else to a fair competition.

That's not really my argument. That's more by rebuttal of the argument that it completely distorts womens sport.

My main argument is that trans women are women and should be treated as women so they should be allowed to compete in womens sport like every other woman is.

My secondary argument is that the needs of the few - as I believe Kirk said - sometimes outweigh the needs of the many. In this case the "needs" of he (few) trans women is to not be considered "other". Othering of trans women seems to cause a lot of psychological harm. Whereas there's very little real harm done to the (many) cis women sportspeople by increasing the pool of competitors. Finishing 46th instead of 45th in a race is a less big deal than risking suicide because society ostracises you.

What happens next is that someone (OOTLG? Rick?) argues that womens sport is made a mockery of by having trans competitors and that all the dudes who used to lose decide to identify as trans women in order to win. This has not happened even though trans women have been allowed to compete in almost all womens sports for decades.

They then point to a single athlete in the New Zealand womens weightlifting team, and I point out that this is one woman and not an army, and she's not undergone gender reassignment in order to compete and it's not made a mockery of any event.

As it happens, I hope that thousands of trans women start competing in sport because I think everyone should be competing.

And as they make up about 0.5% of the population, you'd hope they'd win one in every 200 Olympic medals and so on.

But I also point out that it's likely to be less than that, that they will underperform the general population - this is because the surgery and the hormone therapy that goes with gender reassignment tends to make trans women weaker, and therefore likely to be less competitive.

Fragile and inconsistent point of view without any factual evidence that 'trans women are women' - which is the point really. So cut out the waffle and start by providing evidence that 'trans women are women' in a wholly biological sense. The rest of your post's make believe.

[Minge är en jävla besserwisser]

Ohh look, a bit of sense abroad:

Gender-critical views are a protected belief, appeal tribunal rules

The gender-critical views of a researcher who lost her job at a thinktank after tweeting that transgender women could not change their biological sex are a protected philosophical belief under the Equality Act, a judge-led panel has ruled.


“Just as the legal recognition of civil partnerships does not negate the right of a person to believe that marriage should only apply to heterosexual couples, becoming the acquired gender ‘for all purposes’ within the meaning of GRA does not negate a person’s right to believe, like the claimant, that as a matter of biology a trans person is still their natal sex. Both beliefs may well be profoundly offensive and even distressing to many others, but they are beliefs that are and must be tolerated in a pluralist society.”

The judgment means that organisations now need to consider whether their policies, encouraged by trans rights organisations, discriminate against people with gender-critical views.”


or to put it another way, you can't force people to believe in fairies.


www.theguardian.com/law/2021/jun/10/gender-critical-views-protected-belief-appeal-tribunal-rules-maya-forstater

[perrykneeham]

I'm not sure you're allowed to called them that any more, Ming.

[Repat Van]

“Gender critical”. This is the TERFs version of white supremacists regarding themselves “race realists.”

How could any organisation force people to believe anything though? Surely you believe what you want but you cannot cite your beliefs to discriminate against people in your organisation?


Although just recently wasn’t it being argued that employers SHOULD be looking at their employees social media and taking action on what they find? I cannot keep up.


“ The panel said only views akin to Nazism or totalitarianism were unworthy of protections for rights of freedom of expression and thought.”


Erm…why?

[Minge är en jävla besserwisser]

A protected belief, I think you'll find.