Afghanistan

[wetkingcanute]

This is my hostage to fortune.

It may take a year or so of violence and suppression but I think this time the Taliban will fail.

I think that Afghanistan has advanced too much over the last years. The mass of the people will not support the Taliban and there is only so far violence and suppression can go without the will of the people.

[perrykneeham]

Let's hope you're right.

[voice]

If 20 years of NATO and US forces trying to root them out failed to get rid of em, you can be pretty sure they are not going to go away anytime soon.

Saw some British commander on the beeb earlier recounting what a Taliban commander told him in 2010 "you have the watches, we have the time".

Though reports coming in are a big part of the Taliban advance and gains is due in large part to locals and security forces simply switching sides cos that's better than continuing to fight

[bertruss2]

I think that Afghanistan has advanced too much over the last years.

That's what they said when Afghanistan had a socialist government. Until the Americans stepped in to support the backward tribesmen.



Afghan medical students and professors in the 1970s.

[flatandy]

Pretty good from Biden. Basically he had no choice.

www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/08/14/statement-by-president-joe-biden-on-afghanistan/

"When I came to office, I inherited a deal cut by my predecessor—which he invited the Taliban to discuss at Camp David on the eve of 9/11 of 2019—that left the Taliban in the strongest position militarily since 2001 and imposed a May 1, 2021 deadline on U.S. Forces. Shortly before he left office, he also drew U.S. Forces down to a bare minimum of 2,500. Therefore, when I became President, I faced a choice—follow through on the deal, with a brief extension to get our Forces and our allies’ Forces out safely, or ramp up our presence and send more American troops to fight once again in another country’s civil conflict. I was the fourth President to preside over an American troop presence in Afghanistan—two Republicans, two Democrats. I would not, and will not, pass this war onto a fifth."

[Repat Van]

Saw this in the Guardian on this topic - awful.


www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/aug/13/nowhere-to-go-divorced-afghan-women-in-peril-as-the-taliban-close-in

“In this deeply conservative and patriarchal society, women who defy convention and seek divorce are often disowned by their families and shunned by Afghan society. Left alone, they have to fight for basic rights, such as renting an apartment, which require the involvement or guarantees of male relatives.”

Now, after establishing new, independent lives in Kabul, Roqia and Tahira, and thousands more in similar situations, face another ordeal. As the Taliban tightens its grip on approaches to Kabul, they fear for their future. “If the Taliban take over Kabul, they will not allow us to live the independent lives we live today. We will not even be able to leave our homes because we don’t have mahrams [male guardians],” says Roqia.

The escalating violence has forced many Afghans to flee their homes, but divorced women living alone find themselves isolated, with no place to escape to.

Most terrifying, however, is the practice of forced marriages of young girls and widows to Taliban fighters. “We are very worried about the forced marriages by the Taliban. If they come for us like this, then we will end our lives. It will be the only option for us,” says Tahira.”

[perrykneeham]

Yes, Afghanistan is a feminists issue.

[flatandy]

Pretty much. I don’t know what the solution is, or even if there is one. But Taleban control over Afghanistan fucks up tens of millions of women much more than it does men.

[mids]

Western feminists care more about how many women are on the boards of ftse 100 companies than they do about Afghani women.

[ootlg]

The west could pressure Saudi into controlling the Taliban. Saudi could threaten Takfir, excommunication, if the Taliban failed to adhere to an agreed level of civil control.

But let's not forget that the Taliban is a mixed bunch of tribal warriors and ne'er do wells with different views on civil control.

Fwiw, I'll go by history. The fall of Kabul followed by bloodletting; local skirmishes leading to civil war. Then an uneasy peace, ie. back to Afghan normal.

[flatandy]

If think you mean “back to Afghan normal” for the blokes. Basically, if you’re a bloke in Kandahar, life two years and ago and life two years hence will be largely unchanged if you survive the bloodletting. The same doesn’t appear to be true for the birds.

[ootlg]

Oh absolutely. That's what 'Afghan normal' means.

[Repat Van]

Aug 15, 2021 10:38:11 GMT mids said:

Western feminists care more about how many women are on the boards of ftse 100 companies than they do about Afghani women.

This is some gold plated Whataboutery. Imagine thinking people cannot care about more than one thing.

I would argue ‘Western feminists’ should offer support but should definitely not seek to adopt a paternalistic stance on Afghanistan.

[Repat Van]

Aug 15, 2021 10:41:14 GMT ootlg said:

The west could pressure Saudi into controlling the Taliban. Saudi could threaten Takfir, excommunication, if the Taliban failed to adhere to an agreed level of civil control.

But let's not forget that the Taliban is a mixed bunch of tribal warriors and ne'er do wells with different views on civil control.

Fwiw, I'll go by history. The fall of Kabul followed by bloodletting; local skirmishes leading to civil war. Then an uneasy peace, ie. back to Afghan normal.

Why would Saudi Arabia seek to control a group they seek ideologically aligned with?

[ootlg]

Because the US and the rest of the west could apply pressure - especially now Israel's best buddy with Saudi  ... but mainly because Saudi's increasingly looking to promote a healthier image. 

[Repat Van]

Aug 15, 2021 13:26:24 GMT ootlg said:

Because the US and the rest of the west could apply pressure - especially now Israel's best buddy with Saudi  ??? ... but mainly because Saudi's increasingly looking to promote a healthier image. 

If it wants to promote a healthier image it would have to do a lot to turn around the inner workings of its society.

[ootlg]

Well yeah, but this could be a good start, a message to all the world.

Anyway, Afghanistan's got its sovereignty back, that's the most important thing. Now they can do trade deals with anyone they want and become world-beating, Global Afghanistan.

[mids]

Boris will sort them out. Clear up Biden's mess.

[ootlg]

Johnson must go to Afghanistan... Johnson must go to Afghanistan...

[mids]

Boristan.