However, there is some sense in the US.

[flatandy]

I think you're wrong about foreign policy. From 'Nam and Lumumba, through the bombing of Cambodia and support for fascists in Angola and Mozambique, to Grenada, Noriega, sending arms to the Iranians, backing Saddam, and all sorts. It was off the rails and the US widely unpopular as a result long before the f**k ups of bombing embassies in Belgrade or, later, missile attacks on weddings in Yemen.

[mids]

It's weird how all the worst US presidents have been Democrats. Almost as if there's some sort of pattern.

[perrykneeham]

May 31, 2024 15:23:53 GMT flatandy said:

I think you're wrong about foreign policy. From 'Nam and Lumumba, through the bombing of Cambodia and support for fascists in Angola and Mozambique, to Grenada, Noriega, sending arms to the Iranians, backing Saddam, and all sorts. It was off the rails and the US widely unpopular as a result long before the f**k ups of bombing embassies in Belgrade or, later, missile attacks on weddings in Yemen.

They might have been unpopular in some quarters, that is to be expected, especially during the Cold War and the numerous proxy conflicts. What hadn't happened was the wider fallout, as it became apparent that the glue that held the show together had perished and/or become corrupted. The pigeons came home to roost and that was made worse by the pitiful example being set.

[flatandy]

"Wider"? You mean in the wider part of the world that wasn't Africa, Asia, the Middle East or Latin America?

[Repat Van]

May 31, 2024 14:34:35 GMT perrykneeham said:

I still think Clinton's non-crime, and his subsequent excrutiating display of blatantly dishonourable behaviour were, curiously, more corrosive and damaging than either Trump or Nixon.

Clinton broke America, at home and abroad. It's never recovered it's prestige and is regarded with contempt on the international scene. Worse, it's pitied.

I feel that of all the things people dislike the USA for, Clinton’s sexual misconduct does not crack the top 50. It intervention in foreign matters seems to be what creates its enemies.

That maybe your issue with the USA but I doubt other countries where anti-American sentiment is strongest give two hoots about the Lewinsky affair.

[voice]

The right has long been obsessed with Clinton, sure he was sex pest by being cohesive, but he never raped anyone, despite extensive attempts by Star and Cavanagh to try and find proof he did, and he wasn't an outright criminal as Nixon and Trump were. Really it was The mud throwing and utter insanity of the attempts to 'get him' by Star and Cavanagh that was the unedifying spectacle that was far more tarnishing to image of the US, especially as they found nothing other a jizz stained dress. I think their attempts at humiliation backfield massively though as he won with a landslide, many at the time saw Star in a far worse light than Clinton himself.

Though the continued obsession by the right to keep trying to say he was the devil himself is just tedious at this point, as it's as much bollox today as it was then

[Repat Van]

May 31, 2024 16:10:27 GMT flatandy said:

"Wider"? You mean in the wider part of the world that wasn't Africa, Asia, the Middle East or Latin America?

I think by “wider part of the world” he means “West Europe and Australia”.

Or maybe even “The Bear’s family and friends”.

[perrykneeham]

May 31, 2024 16:10:27 GMT flatandy said:

"Wider"? You mean in the wider part of the world that wasn't Africa, Asia, the Middle East or Latin America?

You think they were all against the USA?

[perrykneeham]

May 31, 2024 17:03:32 GMT voice said:

The right has long been obsessed with Clinton, sure he was sex pest by being cohesive, but he never raped anyone, despite extensive attempts by Star and Cavanagh to try and find proof he did, and he wasn't an outright criminal as Nixon and Trump were. Really it was The mud throwing and utter insanity of the attempts to 'get him' by Star and Cavanagh that was the unedifying spectacle that was far more tarnishing to image of the US, especially as they found nothing other a jizz stained dress. I think their attempts at humiliation backfield massively though as he won with a landslide, many at the time saw Star in a far worse light than Clinton himself.

Though the continued obsession by the right to keep trying to say he was the devil himself is just tedious at this point, as it's as much bollox today as it was then

Tripe. He was a seedy little egoist. Nobody every suggested otherwise.

[perrykneeham]

May 31, 2024 17:06:52 GMT Repat Van said:

May 31, 2024 16:10:27 GMT flatandy said:

"Wider"? You mean in the wider part of the world that wasn't Africa, Asia, the Middle East or Latin America?

I think by “wider part of the world” he means “West Europe and Australia”.

Or maybe even “The Bear’s family and friends”.

Grow up, do. Maybe just contribute.

[mids]

Interesting.

"The following are all undeniable facts.

The judge donated money — a tiny amount, $35, but in plain violation of a rule prohibiting New York judges from making political donations of any kind — to a pro-Biden, anti-Trump political operation, including funds that the judge earmarked for “resisting the Republican Party and Donald Trump’s radical right-wing legacy.” Would folks have been just fine with the judge staying on the case if he had donated a couple bucks to “Re-elect Donald Trump, MAGA forever!”? Absolutely not.

District Attorney Alvin Bragg ran for office in an overwhelmingly Democratic county by touting his Trump-hunting prowess. He bizarrely (and falsely) boasted on the campaign trail, “It is a fact that I have sued Trump over 100 times.” (Disclosure: Both Bragg and Trump’s lead counsel, Todd Blanche, are friends and former colleagues of mine at the Southern District of New York.)

Most importantly, the DA’s charges against Trump push the outer boundaries of the law and due process. That’s not on the jury. That’s on the prosecutors who chose to bring the case and the judge who let it play out as it did."

nymag.com/intelligencer/article/trump-was-convicted-but-prosecutors-contorted-the-law.html

[perrykneeham]

May 31, 2024 17:56:58 GMT perrykneeham said:

May 31, 2024 17:06:52 GMT Repat Van said:

I think by “wider part of the world” he means “West Europe and Australia”.

Or maybe even “The Bear’s family and friends”.

Grow up, do. Maybe just contribute.

Actually, even better, why don't you tell us which of the 50+ countries in Africa were broadly antagonistic to the US?

[perrykneeham]

May 31, 2024 18:02:44 GMT mids said:

Interesting.

"The following are all undeniable facts.

The judge donated money — a tiny amount, $35, but in plain violation of a rule prohibiting New York judges from making political donations of any kind — to a pro-Biden, anti-Trump political operation, including funds that the judge earmarked for “resisting the Republican Party and Donald Trump’s radical right-wing legacy.” Would folks have been just fine with the judge staying on the case if he had donated a couple bucks to “Re-elect Donald Trump, MAGA forever!”? Absolutely not.

District Attorney Alvin Bragg ran for office in an overwhelmingly Democratic county by touting his Trump-hunting prowess. He bizarrely (and falsely) boasted on the campaign trail, “It is a fact that I have sued Trump over 100 times.” (Disclosure: Both Bragg and Trump’s lead counsel, Todd Blanche, are friends and former colleagues of mine at the Southern District of New York.)

Most importantly, the DA’s charges against Trump push the outer boundaries of the law and due process. That’s not on the jury. That’s on the prosecutors who chose to bring the case and the judge who let it play out as it did."

nymag.com/intelligencer/article/trump-was-convicted-but-prosecutors-contorted-the-law.html

I expect he'll win on appeal.

[mids]

Although it might well be "job done" by then. What if he loses the election, wins his case on appeal and the polling suggests he would have won but for the guilty verdict?

[perrykneeham]

I expect the left will immediately overturn the election and call new ones.

[perrykneeham]

Come on, Van! I'll start the ball rolling: Angola, Mozambique, Libya ....

Once you've filled in the other 40+ countries in Africa, we'll try another easy one.

[flatandy]

It’s fascinating that some people are talking about the president from quarter of a century ago so they can avoid engaging with the sustained crookery and corruption and antidemocratic behavior of the current candidate

[voice]

Clinton was probably the first to elicit such derangement syndrome, not even Nixon or LBJ elicited such whackadoole vitriol. I was living in Texas when he got in and the unhinged response was biblical, then Gingrich went full on conspiracy wonk and launched investigation after investigation, finding nothing. I often think Gingrich was the real start to what you see on the right in the US, they no longer see others as fellow Americans, but enemies of the state.

That the right are still experiencing CDS so long after he left office is just as mystifying.

[Repat Van]

It’s because the current crook is Republican.

If he was Democrat they would be focusing on him.

[voice]

Yeah it's just the usual "look, a squirrel" response.