Ukraine

[mids]

That's a socialist state for you though.

[perrykneeham]

Mar 24, 2024 21:04:04 GMT Repat Van said:

Mar 24, 2024 20:56:05 GMT perrykneeham said:

Why is The Mail whining about torture? Of course it's horrible, but it works, up to a point. This is one of those cases where I expect there is no point, by design. The cell structure. Need-to-know. Get past the first 24 hours etc.

They won't get anything useful here.

Does torture work?

Yeah. It does. Not always, but often enough. Anyone that tells you otherwise is a fool or a liar.

[mids]

You always hear the same dumb argument from BBC types. "They'll say anything to make it stop". The information is cross-checked from as many sources as they can get.

[perrykneeham]

It's a horrible thing, but that's sort of the point.

[flatandy]

But that’s the thing. Torture can work, but it’s very unreliable.

Not, I think, that’s they get anything from this dude. I expect this is torture “pour encourager les autres” rather than torture to gain info.

It’s barbaric, of course. Both as punishment and information gathering. But in the grand scheme of people I object to getting tortured, this dude is a long way down the list.

[perrykneeham]

Reliable enough. Check against knowns,etc.

[perrykneeham]

This is punishment and impotent showboating. It's idiotic and everyone knows it. The Russians, like the Israelis, have been humiliated. This is all they've got, and they don't have the backbone to resist it.

[perrykneeham]

This may also illustrate why we pretend not to do it, and why our leadership allows it to be thought that we're above it

[voice]

Doubt they're doing it to get info, they got them already and have rounded up many others with links, this is just revenge on them for murdering so many inocents.

While such things are to be frownd upon, I'm not sheading any tears for this happening to some far right terrorist scum.

[voice]

Russian propaganda is going full in on saying Ukraine with the US help were behind the attack.

Caught with their pants down, a week after the US issues a warning this was about up happen must be hugely embarrassing for Vlad.

[perrykneeham]

Mar 24, 2024 21:46:02 GMT voice said:

Doubt they're doing it to get info, they got them already and have rounded up many others with links, this is just revenge on them for murdering so many inocents.

While such things are to be frownd upon, I'm not sheading any tears for this happening to some far right terrorist scum.

I expect the cell structure means that there were no links to give up.

[marechal]

Pleasantly surprised that the US warned Russia beforehand.

Unpleasantly unsurprised that Vlad turns around and blames the US for thanks. A pathetic and weak move.

[marechal]

What do they call a bedpan in Russia?


A poo-tin.

[mids]

I see left wing British MP, George Galloway, has blamed Obama for the attack in Moscow.

[perrykneeham]

"Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk has delivered a blunt warning that Europe has entered a "pre-war era" and if Ukraine is defeated by Russia, nobody in Europe will be able to feel safe.

"I don't want to scare anyone, but war is no longer a concept from the past," he told European media. "It's real and it started over two years ago."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68692195

Not sure I buy that TBH, on both counts: I don't think a wider conflict with Russia is likely, but I do think Tusk is trying to frighten people.

My concern would be about a wider set of conflicts, as the West is seen to be weak, irresolute and distracted. China, Iran etc.

[flatandy]

I fear a wider set of players getting into conflicts - yes, China and Iran, and always India and Pakistan at each other - but I generally think none of it's likely to impact us in Europe or the Americans. The Russians - if emboldened - might push into the Caucasus and Central Asia, and I guess I'd probably be worried if I were Moldovan. It's definitely worthwhile to knock them back in Ukraine so they aren't emboldened and to save Ukrainians.

On the whole, though, provided Trump doesn't get elected and decide to withdraw the US's protections from everyone as he has said he'll do we're not at risk from Russia. We now know that Russia's military powerhouse is designed to win through overwhelming amounts of men and old equipment, but they really don't have a lot of up to date stuff and the west's conventional arsenal is both way more modern and quite a bit more substantial.

We also think, but haven't seen it demonstrated as effectively, that the same applies to China. They have maybe one squadron of 5th gen fighter jets, untested. The thing is, apart from Japan, Taiwan and South Korea, we don't really give a f**k what China does. Most of Chinese border disputes are in Central Asia and with India and Pakistan, and in the South China Sea with Vietnam and perhaps Indonesia, none of whom we have a whole great massive stonking desire to protect. There's no great imperialist movement at the moment, nor any Kissinger like intention to protect against Communist dominoes. So I doubt we'd stop them.

You'd vaguely want to protect the long-term post-WWII international order and not have shifting borders, but I'm not sure that would be enough to motivate massive intervention.

And I'd like the west to be a bit more committed to trying to prevent what looks like another attempted genocide of Armenians, this time by Azeris.

And I have no doubt that Iran will continue to get messy in Saudi and Pakistan and Syria, but we know from Ukraine that their top quality drones are about mass production of VW Beetles.

And, I suppose it goes without saying, that things will remain fighty in the Great Lakes part of Central Africa and we hope it doesn't overflow elsewhere.

So, while the west retains overwhelming power I'm not sure there are places we'd make much of an effort to get involved if things did get messy.

[perrykneeham]

Yes, some good articulation there. I had been thinking about Turkey perhaps seeing an opportunity to become the regional power, smacking down Iran and settling the Islamist question in the Levant.

They're probably capable of putting Iran in its place, and of offering an alternative islam-lite social model.

[voice]

I do worry if Trump gets in Putin will have him withdraw from NATO and this will give Putin the green light to expand, though I don't think Poland is in the biggest danger, that would be the Baltic states. And while I do think European powers have the tools to stop him, even without the US, I doubt enough would get into it without the US.

[marechal]

The future is here:

Last week, the Russian army’s new grenade-armed robotic mini-tanks joined an assault on Ukrainian positions around Berdychi, just west of the ruins of Avdiivka in eastern Ukraine. The test-by-combat—the first-ever deployment of an armed unmanned ground vehicle for a major mechanized attack—was a smashing success, one Russian propagandist claimed.

But he was lying. In fact, at least two of the five or six Russian UGVs got immobilized then blown up—by Ukraine’s own flying drones.

The ground robots—which appear to be around five feet long, considering they carry 33-inch AGS-17 grenade-launchers—rolled into action as part of the Russian army’s continuing attacks west of Avdiivka, a month after that city—a former Ukrainian stronghold—fell to Russian air force glide-bombs and costly Russian ground assaults.

“As part of the combat mission, a group of assault drones took part in supporting the assault operations, ensuring the suppression of enemy positions in the village using the installed AGS-17 modules, firing several hundred grenades,” propagandist Boris Rozhin wrote.

“During combat use, drones showed good results,” Rozhin added. “The drones were able to continue operating even in conditions where losses of personnel and expensive equipment from enemy fire would have been inevitable.”

But what Rozhin failed to mention is that the Ukrainian army’s 47th Mechanized Brigade either jammed or damaged at least two of the robots—and then sortied tiny first-person-view unmanned aerial vehicles to blow them up.

www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/03/31/the-russians-sent-a-platoon-of-grenade-hurling-robotic-mini-tanks-into-battle-the-ukrainians-blew-up-the-bots-in-the-usual-way-with-drones/?sh=ae4d2b396f18

[perrykneeham]

They sound shite, and their very existence speaks volumes.