Ukraine

[perrykneeham]

Yeah, maybe Bertie thinks the US should duke it out with Russia over Ukraine and all EU countries can just stand by as if they didn't have a dog in the fight.

[ootlg]

If Putin makes any move it'll be a quick move into Donbas where they'll dig in and see what happens next, working on the assumption that the west will say "Donbas? It's practically Russian anyway, a wrecked shithole, so why start WW3 over that?"

Whatever happens he's played a blinder by forcing the west into displaying its grubby underwear. I mean... Liz Truss (who they laughed off the pitch)... Johnson (who never quite got there)... Biden (who's not sure)...

[perrykneeham]

Ah, but you see, the whole point in sending these people to see Putin was to illustrate his bad faith.

[ootlg]

How so?

[perrykneeham]

Because Putin knows that there's no way that the West is going to cede anything. The West only needs to send a couple of folk to be rebuffed to demonstrate that a) the West went the last mile for peace; b) Putin is acting in bad faith and is trying to create a crisis and c) that nobody really give a toss about Putin, certainly not the US.

[ootlg]

The UK certainly isn't going the 'last mile for peace'. All Johnson's done is sabre rattle to avert attention from his own crisis. Biden seems unsure.

"The best hope remains the path to peace outlined last week by French president Emmanuel Macron during talks with Putin in Moscow. How shaming, and dangerous, that Boris Johnson’s government is so unsupportive. Brexit Britain, detached by choice from the EU and in thrall to US policy, is undermining European diplomatic efforts to defuse the crisis."

[ootlg]

"To sum up. Pariah Putin, an international hooligan, triggered the Ukraine crisis and is now exploiting it. Macron, representing France and the EU, is trying hard to resolve it. And ill-judged, hardline and hostile American and British attitudes may yet cause him to fail.

Is this because Washington and London know what’s best for Europe? No. It’s because the US, projecting its national interests through Nato, and the feckless, lying windbag in Downing Street, cannot bear the thought of an empowered, strategically autonomous Europe successfully managing its own security."

Forgot link...

[perrykneeham]

Feb 14, 2022 8:17:59 GMT ootlg said:

The UK certainly isn't going the 'last mile for peace'. All Johnson's done is sabre rattle to avert attention from his own crisis. Biden seems unsure.

"The best hope remains the path to peace outlined last week by French president Emmanuel Macron during talks with Putin in Moscow. How shaming, and dangerous, that Boris Johnson’s government is so unsupportive. Brexit Britain, detached by choice from the EU and in thrall to US policy, is undermining European diplomatic efforts to defuse the crisis."

What sabres has UK rattled?

[perrykneeham]

In what way are the USA's interests and those of the EU different in respect of the Ukraine affair?

[wetkingcanute]

I think Macron is hanging out his washing on the Maginot Line.

(god I'm old)

[perrykneeham]

Has France sued for peace yet? Maybe started rounding up "the fairies and the dykes"?

[ootlg]

Wondered how long before Dad's Army dragged its pitchforks out of the garden shed.

[perrykneeham]

Haha!

[ootlg]

Feb 14, 2022 8:26:06 GMT perrykneeham said:

Feb 14, 2022 8:17:59 GMT ootlg said:

The UK certainly isn't going the 'last mile for peace'. All Johnson's done is sabre rattle to avert attention from his own crisis. Biden seems unsure.

"The best hope remains the path to peace outlined last week by French president Emmanuel Macron during talks with Putin in Moscow. How shaming, and dangerous, that Boris Johnson’s government is so unsupportive. Brexit Britain, detached by choice from the EU and in thrall to US policy, is undermining European diplomatic efforts to defuse the crisis."

What sabres has UK rattled?

Fair enough, 'sabre rattle' is a bit strong. Maybe 'ramping it up as ambiguously as possible' is better.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-60326142

[ootlg]

Feb 14, 2022 8:27:31 GMT perrykneeham said:

In what way are the USA's interests and those of the EU different in respect of the Ukraine affair?

It appears that mainland Europe understandably wants to avoid conflict while the leader of NATO, the US, feels the need to maintain its global muscle. This is the nub of the problem, the US disguised as NATO strutting its stuff on Russia's borders by supplying arms to Ukraine.

link

[perrykneeham]

Pish. Utter pish.

[flatandy]

Utter pish, on so many levels. Much of the US defence establishment is desperate to get out of Europe and to have the Europeans pay for their own defence.

[mids]

Europe doesn't have a choice without the support of the US. So much for the EU army that the EU so desperately wants.

[voice]

Putins creating this issue, he's been waving his cock about strutting and trying to dictate to Ukraine how to run its internal affairs. His regime is an expansionist and he's quite open in brining back into the fold as much of the old Russian empire/USSR lost in the 90's.

Plus Russia is in the toilet economically and he faces a lot of internal pressures so he really needs the distraction of presenting Russia as being the victim of external aggression.

The last thing the US wants in another conflict in Europe, though the likes of Bert who is an old school anti-US type, the type who sided with all manner of despots such as Assad and Hussain in the past, simply cos they were the US's enemy, are now siding with Putin for the same reason.

[Psalms]

The US won't get into a war with a country like Russia.