Ukraine

[flatandy]

At a guess, the US spends about $500bn of its military budget on redistribution to a mix of shareholders in military defence companies, and poor people. Basically that is deliberate “waste”. A less efficient or fair alternative to an actual welfare system.

The other $300bn is mixed between defence of the US, projection of power in the Pacific, and NATO. I’d guess probably $80bn on actual NATO stuff.

[perrykneeham]

Feb 15, 2022 12:46:56 GMT ootlg said:

Check it out.

I have. You're miles out.

www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_67655.htm

[ootlg]

Are you separating direct funding from indirect funding? I'm talking the total figures. Direct funding which covers the administration of NATO amounts to around $2.5B in total, but there'd be no NATO force without indirect funding which comes from each country's defence budget.

The U.S. spends more on defense than any other NATO country.

"According to the 2021 estimates, U.S. defense spending will be close to $811 billion this year. On the other hand, the defense spending of all other NATO countries combined is projected to be $363 billion, meaning the U.S. will outspend all other countries by a whopping $448 billion."

link

[perrykneeham]

So, are you confusing direct + indirect funding of NATO with total US expenditure?

[jimboky]

with the Russia pipeline connecting Russia to Europe is there any reason to have a NATO? isn't Russia now a part of the European network? Isn't any conflict now just an internal affair, No reason for the USA to be a part of NATO

[ootlg]

You're doing the confusing: indirect funding's a variable.

[ootlg]

Feb 15, 2022 15:48:30 GMT jimboky said:

with the Russia pipeline connecting Russia to Europe is there any reason to have a NATO? isn't Russia now a part of the European network? Isn't any conflict now just an internal affair, No reason for the USA to be a part of NATO

Agreed. But your money men - those who make a fortune out of conflict or the threat of it - wouldn't like it.

[ootlg]

Anyway, it's all over, Putin says he's had his fun and he's going home.

[jimboky]

Biden scarred him

[perrykneeham]

Feb 15, 2022 15:51:38 GMT ootlg said:

You're doing the confusing: indirect funding's a variable.

Balls. You're all at sea here.

[bertruss2]

The U.S. spends more on defense than any other NATO country.

On its own "defence". The entire US budget is not spent on NATO operations. NATO countries spend a proportion of the their defence budget to support military operations decided by the US. The US spent more than its NATO allies on the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan but it was all for the benefit of the US. Everything the rest spent, the casualties they took was to serve the United States.

[perrykneeham]

It'll be interesting to see what the US does now. Maybe a year of putting stuff in place that would seriously hamper the Russians next year. No NATO on the ground, but enough to make this a obviously empty threat next year.

[voice]

If Putin has blinked, and it's not just a faint, then Biden and Nato holding firm and not giving him a single concession was a good play.

[perrykneeham]

It might just be that the Pentagon's played a blinder here and made Putin look like the proper Charlie he is. Even the spud-thick Ruskies will work out that they being gaslighted eventually and see that they'd be better off being occupied by the Ukrainians and that Nato membership beckons.

[flatandy]

As I observed a while ago, many russophone Ukrainians want to remain in Ukraine. Basically, only 50% of the "ethnic Russians" in Donbass want to move to Russia. All the Ukrainians, and half the Russians, in Donbass want to stay in Ukraine. My feeling is that these odds will have shifted further in Ukraine's favour over the last few weeks.

If this doesn't kick off, the westerners have indeed played a blinder. Hand over enough gear to the Ukrainians to make sure that there were going to be too many casualties for the Russians was shrug off. Make clear that there are enough people willing to put in enough sanctions to make Russia even more of an economic shithole than it already is. And allow the Germans to pretend they were trying to mediate (by not letting arms shipments fly over their territory) so the Russians don't get off their gas supply.

[perrykneeham]

It's made a pretty strong case for a European defence arrangement that doesn't rely on Europeans.

[voice]

Trudeau just sent $50 billion in used five and tens to help prop up Ukraine.

[mids]

I see Truss has played a blinder here.

[bertruss2]

If this doesn't kick off, the westerners have indeed played a blinder

Another interpretation is that the Russians were conducting military exercises with no invasion of Ukraine being imminent. The Russian parliament is asking for diplomatic recognition of the 'republics' of Luhansk and Donetsk in the Donbas region of Ukraine, though..

Russia's parliament, the Duma, voted on Tuesday to ask Putin to recognize two Russian-backed breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine as independent.(Deutsche Welle)

I doubt if Putin thinks that's a good idea.

[voice]

Yeah, but only those blind and or so obsessed by their Anti-US in all things world view think that interpretation was reality based.