FCUK SOCIETY!

[Repat Van]

Jun 26, 2022 9:24:21 GMT ootlg said:

This problem is huge and convoluted. Example: I want to employ one or two people to do menial work - the problem is, I can't afford to pay them minimum wage and the high social charges that go with it - for a start the obligatory insurance is extortionate. There are loads who'd like the chance to work for less, but it's against the law, and it's not just me - every artisan/small company I know has the work and needs help but can't afford to expand.

Apprenticeships are another thing - it needs state support to pay for them because basically they're a drain on resources for the first year or two.

If you cannot afford to pay minimum wage then you cannot afford to be in business. It’s disturbing to hear people lament that if only they were able to engage slave labour they could afford to have a business…



“Loads to have the chance to work for less” - doubt. It’s why so many employers are struggling to find staff in low paid industries at present. I remember my first job I worked as a cleaner and being under 18 it was legal to pay me less than the other women I worked alongside despite using doing the exact same work. I never felt grateful. I felt perplexed at not receiving equal pay for the same work.

(Fun fact: it was the same when I started at Asda and although there were meant to be some tasks under 18s weren’t allowed to do given our age - they routinely ignored this.)

[Repat Van]

Jun 26, 2022 9:30:59 GMT ootlg said:

Someone would grass me up.

If there is a reward I would be the one grassing.

[Repat Van]

Jun 26, 2022 15:39:11 GMT flatandy said:

I think there’s a lot of wishful thinking about apprenticeships - I’m not sure there are actually that many apprenticeship-type jobs that want to train up apprentices. It’s a harking back to the glorious past sort of nonsense, things were better in the 50s stuff.

And I think there’s a lot of belief that tertiary education should be the preserve of the limited elite.

Nah I think it definitely can be done. See: ((as in many many things) Australia and the “TAFE” system.) However it should not be done as an excuse to push people down a certain path based on class and closing off certain opportunities to them when still young.

And the access and opportunities should be the same. At my girls school in a heavily working class / brown neighbourhood our “careers” discussions involved heavily encouraging us into qualifications around childcare and hair and beauty. University was never mentioned (nor more highly paid vocational options.) And for those who enquired about a path leading to university we were given bad information.

Luckily a lot of the parents were more switched on.

[perrykneeham]

"Apprenticeships are another thing - it needs state support to pay for them because basically they're a drain on resources for the first year or two."

Really not true. Again, it's old fart thinking. Forgivable, but wrong.

You have to train your employees. Typically, trainees are paid less than trained people and skilled people more than them. The apprenticeship schemes allow for structured andnaugmentedctraiining precisely so that trainees are going somewhere and they're not just cheap labour, given bare minimum instruction.

[flatandy]

Van is absolutely right that if you do have an apprenticeship/vocational parallel route you have to make sure lots of posh kids end up in it, and lots of peasant kids go to "clever person" university. Because it always used to be a nice convenient way of keeping the oiks in their place and not let them get all kind of high-falutin' ideas above their station because they had learning.

You can bet that fee-paying schools will work very hard to make sure their kids go to Real University to study Real Subjects, and kids at the state schools are the ones to be encouraged to become the highly trained support staff for these elites.

[perrykneeham]

The problem is that many of our "clever person" universities aren't really for "clever persons", only people being allowed to imagine that it's the same thing while paying for their own dole.

[voice]

So I've read the thread with interest, its clear the perspectives are much as you'd expect given each posters background and politics, baloo, posh boy that he is, considers education wasted on the plebs, best they go be plumbers and manual labourers as fitting their station in life, though obviously not the preferred outcome for private school boys, for the elites its uni all the way as they'd appreciate it , and fandy, middle class boy that he is is a bit more egalitarian, equal chances for all, but realising the playing field is not a fair one.

As probably the one here from the poor working classes who actually went to a sink school inner city comp I can say with out doubt there is (or was in my day) an expectation that few who went there was ever gonna go to uni, our careers teacher was known to just tell kids, 'oh the council is hiring for the road crew, or the bins, or the local factory, Steel Drums, needs hands, ffs they were not even considering most at my school for apprentices, so for those of us who actually wanted to go onto to Uni there was little help or expectation from school. Obviously I don't think we were well served by the teachers and those acting as gate keepers to higher education who had little or no expectations for us. The idea that we were just a bunch of thick northern kids, not worthy of the investment or effort given to middle class kids in places like Oxford or posh kids in private schools. It appears to have changed little in the ensuing decades. Though some of the kids I was a school with were clearly very clever and would have done just as well had they the same access and opportunity. I was lucky, despite leaving with no qualifications I knew it wasn't me that was the problem and yes I've been told by the posh boys, when ever I point out the inequality that holds so many poor kids back that its a sign of chippyness (but lets face it the chippyness quip is used to by those who don't want to face the truth of the inequality inherent in our society).

So really if society is f@cked , its been f@cked for a very long time and its done do deliberately to the poor kids by the posh boys with the help of the middle class boys.

There's a reason I left, I'd have never achieved in the UK what I have here, cos as soon as I open my mouth in the UK a whole swath of stereotypical prejudices kick in and the rest follows.

[ootlg]

Jun 26, 2022 16:15:00 GMT flatandy said:

Well, there’s a lot of wishful thinking about outdated apprenticeships.

Outdated apprenticeships? Like?

[perrykneeham]

I started with the statement that education must be better for everyone. And you've proved it.

I happen to work in apprenticeships (the top end, expensive ones which are free for the learners and gives them proper professional qualifications and a shot at a really successful career).

[mids]

Hod carrier.

[perrykneeham]

Lab Techs and Science Manifacturing Techs. £ 21K and £ 28K. Free to the learner with no debts. Earn-as-you-learn. All ages, any prior learning considered, even graduates with non-cognate degrees.

[mids]

Why would you want to do that when you can go to the University of East London and end up with 40k of debt and a degree in Diversity Studies?

[ootlg]

Jun 26, 2022 16:33:02 GMT Repat Van said:

Jun 26, 2022 9:24:21 GMT ootlg said:

This problem is huge and convoluted. Example: I want to employ one or two people to do menial work - the problem is, I can't afford to pay them minimum wage and the high social charges that go with it - for a start the obligatory insurance is extortionate. There are loads who'd like the chance to work for less, but it's against the law, and it's not just me - every artisan/small company I know has the work and needs help but can't afford to expand.

Apprenticeships are another thing - it needs state support to pay for them because basically they're a drain on resources for the first year or two.

If you cannot afford to pay minimum wage then you cannot afford to be in business. It’s disturbing to hear people lament that if only they were able to engage slave labour they could afford to have a business…



“Loads to have the chance to work for less” - doubt. It’s why so many employers are struggling to find staff in low paid industries at present. I remember my first job I worked as a cleaner and being under 18 it was legal to pay me less than the other women I worked alongside despite using doing the exact same work. I never felt grateful. I felt perplexed at not receiving equal pay for the same work.

(Fun fact: it was the same when I started at Asda and although there were meant to be some tasks under 18s weren’t allowed to do given our age - they routinely ignored this.)

Your response lacks realism. For me to employ two youngsters of 18 to carry out non-productive maintenance work I'd need to find €1000 a week, €52k a year. This is the farming world. Most use family to do such work. It's a huge sector of the global market. If you then look into the causes of this you'll find that the market is dominated and controlled by supermarket giants who will not pay a fair price for farming produce, a) to keep prices down and to keep customers buying, and b) to keep their shareholders happy.

To maintain the farming industry, subsidies have to be paid. Without them you'd go hungry.

These subsidies are provided by the taxpayer - those who buy the cheap produce in the supermarkets. See where this is going? Who's making the shareholders fat? The taxpayer.

So back to employees, I can't afford to take them on because the money which should be available to pay them is being syphoned into shareholder accounts.

It's all very well sitting back number-crunching in your personal micro-climate, demanding equal rights, but life ain't like that.

[ootlg]

Jun 26, 2022 16:44:36 GMT perrykneeham said:

"Apprenticeships are another thing - it needs state support to pay for them because basically they're a drain on resources for the first year or two."

Really not true. Again, it's old fart thinking. Forgivable, but wrong.

You have to train your employees. Typically, trainees are paid less than trained people and skilled people more than them. The apprenticeship schemes allow for structured andnaugmentedctraiining precisely so that trainees are going somewhere and they're not just cheap labour, given bare minimum instruction.

This is a bizarre response. First you dispute my statement about resources, then you go on to say exactly the same thing, and then throw in a cheap labour straw man.

I know you boast about your superlative education, but for education to work it needs intelligence as a partner.

[perrykneeham]

"To maintain the farming industry, subsidies have to be paid. Without them you'd go hungry"

Not sure that's true. Subsidies are there to protect the industry not to ensure that we can access agricultural product. Subsidies ensure you don't go hungry.

[ootlg]

Jun 27, 2022 7:12:05 GMT perrykneeham said:

I started with the statement that education must be better for everyone. And you've proved it.

I happen to work in apprenticeships (the top end, expensive ones which are free for the learners and gives them proper professional qualifications and a shot at a really successful career).

I smell bullshit. What does this have to do with say, learning a good basic trade? What qualifications are required for these 'apprenticeships'?

[ootlg]

Jun 27, 2022 7:45:13 GMT perrykneeham said:

"To maintain the farming industry, subsidies have to be paid. Without them you'd go hungry"

Not sure that's true. Subsidies are there to protect the industry not to ensure that we can access agricultural product. Subsidies ensure you don't go hungry.

Did you read and absorb the whole of that post or are you just being argumentative again?

[perrykneeham]

Jun 27, 2022 7:46:36 GMT ootlg said:

Jun 27, 2022 7:12:05 GMT perrykneeham said:

I started with the statement that education must be better for everyone. And you've proved it.

I happen to work in apprenticeships (the top end, expensive ones which are free for the learners and gives them proper professional qualifications and a shot at a really successful career).

I smell bullshit. What does this have to do with say, learning a good basic trade? What qualifications are required for these 'apprenticeships'?

Being a LabTech is a good trade. Minimum of C in Maths and English. Next!

[perrykneeham]

Jun 27, 2022 7:47:35 GMT ootlg said:

Jun 27, 2022 7:45:13 GMT perrykneeham said:

"To maintain the farming industry, subsidies have to be paid. Without them you'd go hungry"

Not sure that's true. Subsidies are there to protect the industry not to ensure that we can access agricultural product. Subsidies ensure you don't go hungry.

Did you read and absorb the whole of that post or are you just being argumentative again?

I agree that subsidies support the industry but I doubt we'd go hungry without them.

[ootlg]

So you didn't read and absorb the whole of the post.