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Post by perrykneeham on Jun 27, 2022 10:02:34 GMT
Maybe I mis-read it.
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Post by perrykneeham on Jun 27, 2022 10:04:10 GMT
"Apprenticeships are another thing - it needs state support to pay for them because basically they're a drain on resources for the first year or two." Really not true. Again, it's old fart thinking. Forgivable, but wrong. You have to train your employees. Typically, trainees are paid less than trained people and skilled people more than them. The apprenticeship schemes allow for structured andnaugmentedctraiining precisely so that trainees are going somewhere and they're not just cheap labour, given bare minimum instruction. This is a bizarre response. First you dispute my statement about resources, then you go on to say exactly the same thing, and then throw in a cheap labour straw man.
I know you boast about your superlative education, but for education to work it needs intelligence as a partner.
They're not a drain on resources. They’re trainees. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Jun 27, 2022 10:04:42 GMT
Cheap labour isn't a straw man. It's a fact.
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ootlg
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Post by ootlg on Jun 27, 2022 10:07:23 GMT
Maybe I didn't make my point clear, that the structure of the system, how the money flows, is at the root of the problem, that superficial observation tends to muddy the water.
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ootlg
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Post by ootlg on Jun 27, 2022 10:08:12 GMT
This is a bizarre response. First you dispute my statement about resources, then you go on to say exactly the same thing, and then throw in a cheap labour straw man.
I know you boast about your superlative education, but for education to work it needs intelligence as a partner.
They're not a drain on resources. They’re trainees. Someone's not working while they're training them. |
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ootlg
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Post by ootlg on Jun 27, 2022 10:08:52 GMT
Cheap labour isn't a straw man. It's a fact. But irrelevant to my point. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Jun 27, 2022 10:34:29 GMT
They're not a drain on resources. They’re trainees. Someone's not working while they're training them. Bollocks. |
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ootlg
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Post by ootlg on Jun 27, 2022 11:15:56 GMT
It's very basic stuff you know. Same principle as teaching - "Those who can, do, those who can't etc". You being a teacher should know this... oh, hang on...
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Post by flatandy on Jun 27, 2022 12:01:38 GMT
Lab Techs and Science Manifacturing Techs. £ 21K and £ 28K. Free to the learner with no debts. Earn-as-you-learn. All ages, any prior learning considered, even graduates with non-cognate degrees. These are good gigs. I approve of their existence. But 1 - most people who have wishful thinking thoughts about the return of apprenticeships aren’t thinking about this kind of thing 2 - there actually aren’t as many gigs doing this sort of stuff as there are doing jobs that need full tertiary education: you can’t really shift large portions of society out to this kind of thing 3 - many people don’t want a vocation or a job for life, which is what a technical training apprenticeship sets them up for. They want more flexibility 4 - I still bet you don’t get many posh kids going this route rather than the tens of thousands of quids worth of debt to study arts history in St Andrews. It remains very much a class based separation like apprenticeships always were. Because rich parents want “better” for their kids and would find any way to assume their kids are in the elite group who’d benefit from a 3 or 4 year fancy education. |
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Post by Repat Van on Jun 27, 2022 12:09:32 GMT
If you cannot afford to pay minimum wage then you cannot afford to be in business. It’s disturbing to hear people lament that if only they were able to engage slave labour they could afford to have a business… “Loads to have the chance to work for less” - doubt. It’s why so many employers are struggling to find staff in low paid industries at present. I remember my first job I worked as a cleaner and being under 18 it was legal to pay me less than the other women I worked alongside despite using doing the exact same work. I never felt grateful. I felt perplexed at not receiving equal pay for the same work. (Fun fact: it was the same when I started at Asda and although there were meant to be some tasks under 18s weren’t allowed to do given our age - they routinely ignored this.) Your response lacks realism. For me to employ two youngsters of 18 to carry out non-productive maintenance work I'd need to find €1000 a week, €52k a year. This is the farming world. Most use family to do such work. It's a huge sector of the global market. If you then look into the causes of this you'll find that the market is dominated and controlled by supermarket giants who will not pay a fair price for farming produce, a) to keep prices down and to keep customers buying, and b) to keep their shareholders happy.
To maintain the farming industry, subsidies have to be paid. Without them you'd go hungry.
These subsidies are provided by the taxpayer - those who buy the cheap produce in the supermarkets. See where this is going? Who's making the shareholders fat? The taxpayer.
So back to employees, I can't afford to take them on because the money which should be available to pay them is being syphoned into shareholder accounts.
It's all very well sitting back number-crunching in your personal micro-climate, demanding equal rights, but life ain't like that.
It’s not “lacking realism” to assert that people should receive fair compensation for their work and that if you cannot afford to pay at least minimum wage (which is in most instances not even a living wage) then your business model needs to change.) Arguing in favour of slave labour so you can continue to make a profit is really not the flex you think it is. Oz has the highest minimum wage in the world and yet low unemployed by so it is perfectly possible. Note how it is never the people who have to survive on slave labour wages who are big supporters of it. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Jun 27, 2022 12:17:02 GMT
It's very basic stuff you know. Same principle as teaching - "Those who can, do, those who can't etc". You being a teacher should know this... oh, hang on... So you don't actually have a point, u less your objective was to showcase your ignorance of the subject. Old geezer syndrome. Times have moved on. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Jun 27, 2022 12:24:20 GMT
Lab Techs and Science Manifacturing Techs. £ 21K and £ 28K. Free to the learner with no debts. Earn-as-you-learn. All ages, any prior learning considered, even graduates with non-cognate degrees. These are good gigs. I approve of their existence. But 1 - most people who have wishful thinking thoughts about the return of apprenticeships aren’t thinking about this kind of thing 2 - there actually aren’t as many gigs doing this sort of stuff as there are doing jobs that need full tertiary education: you can’t really shift large portions of society out to this kind of thing 3 - many people don’t want a vocation or a job for life, which is what a technical training apprenticeship sets them up for. They want more flexibility 4 - I still bet you don’t get many posh kids going this route rather than the tens of thousands of quids worth of debt to study arts history in St Andrews. It remains very much a class based separation like apprenticeships always were. Because rich parents want “better” for their kids and would find any way to assume their kids are in the elite group who’d benefit from a 3 or 4 year fancy education. 1. I think the understanding is better amongst younger people (see above). 2. Untrue. There are f**k**g shedloads. The problem is that there are alsooads of pisspoor graduates. 3. Appreciateships allow flexibility. They get qualified and can do what they want. Stick with it, move on or continue with CPD. 4. True, but it is becoming more of a thing for middle class kids, especially ones who've done junk degrees. |
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ootlg
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Post by ootlg on Jun 27, 2022 12:59:58 GMT
It's very basic stuff you know. Same principle as teaching - "Those who can, do, those who can't etc". You being a teacher should know this... oh, hang on... So you don't actually have a point, u less your objective was to showcase your ignorance of the subject. Old geezer syndrome. Times have moved on. Who teaches your 'apprentices'? You don't have a clue, out of touch with the real world. Is this why you waste half your life changing jobs or being booted out? |
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ootlg
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Post by ootlg on Jun 27, 2022 13:08:59 GMT
These are good gigs. I approve of their existence. But 1 - most people who have wishful thinking thoughts about the return of apprenticeships aren’t thinking about this kind of thing 2 - there actually aren’t as many gigs doing this sort of stuff as there are doing jobs that need full tertiary education: you can’t really shift large portions of society out to this kind of thing 3 - many people don’t want a vocation or a job for life, which is what a technical training apprenticeship sets them up for. They want more flexibility 4 - I still bet you don’t get many posh kids going this route rather than the tens of thousands of quids worth of debt to study arts history in St Andrews. It remains very much a class based separation like apprenticeships always were. Because rich parents want “better” for their kids and would find any way to assume their kids are in the elite group who’d benefit from a 3 or 4 year fancy education. 1. I think the understanding is better amongst younger people (see above). 2. Untrue. There are f**k**g shedloads. The problem is that there are alsooads of pisspoor graduates. 3. Appreciateships allow flexibility. They get qualified and can do what they want. Stick with it, move on or continue with CPD. 4. True, but it is becoming more of a thing for middle class kids, especially ones who've done junk degrees. 1. Who fixes your (name any one of a hundred skilled trades)?
2. Graduates? f**k**g graduates?? 3. Define 'many people'.
4. You mean educational failures who may have been better off training to be any one of a hundred skilled trades?
You're all over the place, gobbing off. As usual.
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Post by perrykneeham on Jun 27, 2022 13:11:21 GMT
Oh dear. Someone's having a meltdown.
Who teaches the apprentices? Well, as you clearly don't understand what an apprenticeship is, perhaps we should start with the basics. An apprenticeship is earn-as-you-learn experiential training and involves both on- and off-the-job-training. The objective is to give structure and augmentation to what is learned in work. On-trainjng is diverse during the course oflf work activities and can be yhroyhy colleagues, mentors or in-house instruction and structured learning. The off- is delivered by specialist Tutors who seek to broaden thar Lear jng and augment it with additional science content.
There is no specific course unit for "long stands" or "striped paints" whivh are so fondly remembered by 1970s Robin Asquith throwbacks such as yourself.
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Post by perrykneeham on Jun 27, 2022 13:12:48 GMT
I make quite a good living at this, so you'll forgive me if I feel somewhat sure of my ground.
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Post by perrykneeham on Jun 27, 2022 13:20:13 GMT
A few years ago I was standing in a electrical wholesalers looking at an SDS patrice cutter (used to chop out the backbones for sockets) and I asked an old electrician if they were any cop.
"Dunno" he said "I do it the old-fashioned way and make the f**k**g apprentice do it".
I think this is what OOTLG has in mind. A sort of low-paid flunked, paying his dues to a bullying dickhead who is time-served and determined to get his pound of flesh.
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mids
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Post by mids on Jun 27, 2022 13:29:09 GMT
I used to work with a bloke who'd been an apprentice welder in the 80s. For the the first year, all he was told to do was to "knock that slag off".
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ootlg
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Post by ootlg on Jun 27, 2022 13:35:29 GMT
Oh dear. Someone's having a meltdown. Who teaches the apprentices? Well, as you clearly don't understand what an apprenticeship is, perhaps we should start with the basics. An apprenticeship is earn-as-you-learn experiential training and involves both on- and off-the-job-training. The objective is to give structure and augmentation to what is learned in work. On-trainjng is diverse during the course oflf work activities and can be yhroyhy colleagues, mentors or in-house instruction and structured learning. The off- is delivered by specialist Tutors who seek to broaden thar Lear jng and augment it with additional science content. There is no specific course unit for "long stands" or "striped paints" whivh are so fondly remembered by 1970s Robin Asquith throwbacks such as yourself. Me having a meltdown?
Earn as you learn? Is this the slave labour to which you earlier referred? How does he wire a complex control panel - by watching someone else do it? Is that the BS you loosely term 'experiential'? Who pays for 'off-the-job-training?
And WTF's 'structure and augmentation'? Sounds like you've copied a jobseekers' text-book.
"On-trainjng is diverse during the course oflf work activities and can be yhroyhy colleagues, mentors or in-house instruction and structured learning." More waffle.
Again - who pays for 'specialist Tutors'? And how does training the apprenyice broaden thar Lear jng and augment it with additional science content. Ditto.
You're an empty vessel.
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ootlg
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Post by ootlg on Jun 27, 2022 13:39:03 GMT
A few years ago I was standing in a electrical wholesalers looking at an SDS patrice cutter (used to chop out the backbones for sockets) and I asked an old electrician if they were any cop. "Dunno" he said "I do it the old-fashioned way and make the f**k**g apprentice do it". I think this is what OOTLG has in mind. A sort of low-paid flunked, paying his dues to a bullying dickhead who is time-served and determined to get his pound of flesh. Oddly enough, I didn't have anything in mind beyond talking about the difficulties of employing people. |
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