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Post by perrykneeham on Dec 6, 2022 18:43:13 GMT
Well, there is a case for all of those things if the public sector is making a pig's ear of it, but I take your point. again though, they were deliberately run down and mismanaged so the gov of the day could say 'look how badly run they are (by us) best we sell them to (our mates in the city)'. The same lot are still doing the same thing. That's just silly NHS shilling. Tedious. |
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voice
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Post by voice on Dec 6, 2022 18:43:52 GMT
as for schools, all I've heard for the last decade from those on the right is how badly run the schools are (by them), so is having all schools run by MAT's ideological or a good thing, cos the results don't favour.
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Post by perrykneeham on Dec 6, 2022 18:45:16 GMT
as for schools, all I've heard for the last decade from those on the right is how badly run the schools are (by them), so is having all schools run by MAT's ideological or a good thing, cos the results don't favour. Oh, pish. MATs were a Labour thing, just like Public/Private sector initiatives. |
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voice
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Post by voice on Dec 6, 2022 18:46:39 GMT
clearly untrue, as you as said last page, no investment in infrastructure, rampant short termism, dividends instead of investment, knowing the gov will bail them out at the least sign of trouble so no incentive to get their house in order. So, not clearly untrue at all. The observable facts support my position. There are some badly run privatised organisations but that is because they are not properly supervised or held to account - a point that I was also at pains to make. I should have said public services are clearly not run better by the market, I said the market is better running gromit factories than gov, though the dissuasion had leaned towards a discussion of privatized public services and that's where my comments were aimed. |
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voice
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Post by voice on Dec 6, 2022 18:49:04 GMT
as for schools, all I've heard for the last decade from those on the right is how badly run the schools are (by them), so is having all schools run by MAT's ideological or a good thing, cos the results don't favour. Oh, pish. MATs were a Labour thing, just like Public/Private sector initiatives. Oh PPI was a sh*t show, bad policy, based again on the idea that you just can't raise tax to pay for the stuff you need, better to hide the real cost of things than let the public know they have to pay for the stuff they rely on. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Dec 6, 2022 18:50:31 GMT
There remain an awful lot more grommet factories than public utilities, especially outside of Bevan-frotting UK.
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Post by perrykneeham on Dec 6, 2022 18:52:13 GMT
Oh, pish. MATs were a Labour thing, just like Public/Private sector initiatives. Oh PPI was a sh*t show, bad policy, based again on the idea that you just can't raise tax to pay for the stuff you need, better to hide the real cost of things than let the public know they have to pay for the stuff they rely on. Still a Labour idea, like MATs. It was simple fraud is what it was. There's clearly a case for running public services for the public without it being all about the shareholders or all about the employees. |
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voice
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Post by voice on Dec 6, 2022 18:57:21 GMT
yep, weak government at its worst, afraid to stand up to the lie that the only way to prosperity is cutting taxes rather than raising them, its time we consigned the low tax lie to history and tell people if they want good roads and bridges, or new hospitals and clean drinking water then they might have pay an extra couple of pence on their taxes. Oh and close all the massive loopholes that allow the truly wealthy to pay less tax than the average earner.
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Post by perrykneeham on Dec 6, 2022 19:07:00 GMT
Well, it's weak government of all stripes maybe, but I suspect that it's more to do with Establishment venality.
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Post by flatandy on Dec 6, 2022 19:35:18 GMT
So, not clearly untrue at all. The observable facts support my position. There are some badly run privatised organisations but that is because they are not properly supervised or held to account - a point that I was also at pains to make. Any business that "needs to be held to account" probably shouldn't be private in the first place. The market isn't doing a job if there are deus ex machina controls in place to make the market and business behave. |
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Post by flatandy on Dec 6, 2022 19:39:26 GMT
Well, there is a case for all of those things if the public sector is making a pig's ear of it, but I take your point. again though, they were deliberately run down and mismanaged so the gov of the day could say 'look how badly run they are (by us) best we sell them to (our mates in the city)'. The same lot are still doing the same thing. I actually think this is backwards. The UK taxpayer spent a lot on infrastructure just before privatisation in order to create an artificially healthy set of businesses where the shareholders could reap the rewards without having to worry about spending any of their earnings on actually looking after their core business, and the shareholders got comfortable with that and forgot that it would really only hold up for about 10 years. 35 years on and all the infrastructure is totally f**k*d. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Dec 6, 2022 19:41:10 GMT
Hmmmm .... the law is supposed to enough to hold us all to account. We seem to have framed the law to suit a very freewheeling interpretation of corporate responsibility. Absolute minimum.
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ootlg
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Post by ootlg on Dec 7, 2022 13:40:29 GMT
The problem is one of ideology at its root cause, public services were privatized because of a flawed ideology that said the market is better at running stuff (clearly untrue), but the reality was those in power and those backing them simply saw them as cash cows for the milking. The fact they were run down on purpose to make them look like they were in shambles is often overlooked. So you went from a situation where those services that generated a profit and put that profit back into maintaining or replacing infrastructure no longer had that incentive cos the profits were syphoned off as dividends, and where they didn't make profits the dividends have been effectively paid by tax payers who give massive subsidies/bail outs to the privatized utilities/services by governments who sold the idea they couldn't be allowed to fail as private companies and in nationalizing them again would give the lie to the idea nationalized bad, market good. And that same ideology is still at play, the same greedy eyes who saw cash cows needing milking in the 80s and 90s are looking at the NHS, we've seen that run down by successive govs over the last 12 years and the same bS about its funding model being unsustainable (despite lasting nearly 80 years so far) and how the market will run it so much better, despite the market failing utterly every other time it was given a public service to milk. The other side is we've been sold the lie that low tax and minimal regulation is the way to create prosperity, the old lie of trickle down, if you make the rich richer all of us benefit, while the gap only grew wider and inequality threatens our very stability. So you have the absurd situation where the richest pay less tax than the poorest, it was never trickle down, but trickle up, the last 40 years has seen the biggest redistribution of wealth in modern times, and the it was an upward spigot. The market is generally better at running things, which is why so few things are run by the state. The point is that services need to be just that, not profit-making schemes. |
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ootlg
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Post by ootlg on Dec 7, 2022 14:03:16 GMT
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mids
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Post by mids on Dec 7, 2022 14:13:29 GMT
There are establishments and establishments. Probably even establishments too.
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ootlg
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Post by ootlg on Dec 7, 2022 14:21:00 GMT
Ah, a sort of vague nothing then.
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Post by perrykneeham on Dec 7, 2022 14:48:53 GMT
I think we're all able to cope with the concept of an Establishment that doesn't require its constituent members to meet in a secret underwater HQ guarded by a private army.
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ootlg
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Post by ootlg on Dec 7, 2022 16:09:42 GMT
You often use the term as a cop-out, so I'm calling you on it.
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ootlg
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Post by ootlg on Dec 7, 2022 16:10:27 GMT
I think we're all able to cope with the concept of an Establishment that doesn't require its constituent members to meet in a secret underwater HQ guarded by a private army. Oh, and this is childish bollocks. |
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mids
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Post by mids on Dec 7, 2022 16:30:10 GMT
Descended or not?
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