No speakee Engleesh.

[VikingHumpingWitch]

I think she means that just because the kids are speaking Foreign doesn't mean that they cannot also speak good English. I know quite a lot of people here in Sweden who didn't speak Swedish at home but speak it perfectly well, they got sent to daycare at 2 and by the time they were in proper school they had no more difficulties with the language than ethnic Swedish kids.

[Victor Meldrew]

I know what she meant, and as I said, it isn't the case. They can't speak good English. The only place they are made to use it is in school, and even then they aren't forced to learn it.

There's no argument about it. The Ofsted report admits it in about four different places and the school's own headteacher admits it.

[VikingHumpingWitch]

OK, only you didn't give us anything to go on other than that you hadn't heard them speaking English and therefore assumed they coudn't.

[Victor Meldrew]

I posted a link to an award won by the school's headteacher on page 2 of this thread, which showed the sort of situation she inherited at this school. Without going back to that message, part of the article states:-

Two schools which had failed Ofsted inspections were combined into one steadily sinking ship, and morale had hit rock bottom. Of the 500-plus pupils, not one spoke English as a first language and, although the majority of pupils were Bangladeshi, at home they spoke 25 different languages.

Many had started school with no English at all.

Although these comments go back to the 2000 awards, it seems not much has changed. The Ofsted report of the 2007 inspection still makes great play on the lack of English spoken by the children when determining the school's performance.

[VikingHumpingWitch]

Sorry, I missed your link.

I'm quite interested in this on account of having a friend who moved here 2 years ago from England with her then 12 year old daughter, who obviously started school here with no Swedish. It's kind of amazing how quick kids pick up languages. That said, I cannot imagine how frustrating and pointless it must feel to be attempting to teach your subject to children who have no understanding of your language at all.

[vania]

Victor,

Sorry can you point out where it says they don't speak good English. All you've pointed out is that English is their second language, which to you seems to indicate their English isn't good. I'm asking how you know that?

I ask as I know plenty of fluent English speakers, for whom English is a second language whilst Arabic/Czech (thinking of just two of many examples) is their first language.

[vania]

Although yes, I can understand how it would be difficult for a teacher facing kids who start school without English, but most kids who start like that pick up the other language extremely quickly.

[VikingHumpingWitch]

Incidentally I'm so jealous of kids who spoke foreign at home. My mate Danny spoke fluent Arabic and Assyrian before starting daycare where he became fluent in Swedish, then learnt fluent English in school. His brother, who is 18, also speaks Italian and Spanish. B'stards.

[Libby]

I think the likelihood is that they can actually speak very good English, but they naturally choose to use their own language whenever they can. I am sure when in class or talking to English people the children revert quite naturally to speaking English. In my experience children are so adaptable to languages. Next door to where i live there is a Chinese family currently renting the property whilst the English owner is abroad. The family speak their native tongue at home and in the street, but at school, in the shops and where English people are, they revert to well-spoken English. Even their toddler can adjust immediately. I don't think we tend to give people who speak another native language enough credit sometimes for being able to be bilingual.

Having said that, there are plenty of foreigners who come to the UK and are never prepared to learn our language, i am afraid my patience wears a bit thin in these cases sometimes. It can be very frustrating!

[vania]

Me too Vike.

One of my close friends is fluent in Arabic and my former housemate is fulyl bilingual Czech/English.

In Canada being at leats bilingual is seen as A GOOD THING and people flaunt the number of languages they speak.

Grr. I should have had foreign parents.

[puffin]

Many of the children who start school with no, or poor, English, become fluent even before they leave the first year.
They ARE taught in English, and they do learn quickly. Having English as a second language does not have to mean that their Engish is any worse than other children attending the school. In fact the greater the variety of languages that are'home' languages the more incentive for children to become fluent in English so that they can communicate.
Why do you think that English has remained an official language in India?

[Libby]

I guess it's a question of old habits die hard and the old British Empire position! English is an international language after all!

[puffin]

It also has a lot to do with the number of different languages spoken inside the country. As people became more mobile and left their own areas for work etc they needed a common language to communicate. They chose the duality of Urdu and English. In England we don't have that duality. English it is.

[Victor Meldrew]

Victor,

Sorry can you point out where it says they don't speak good English. All you've pointed out is that English is their second language

Vania

The Ofsted report states that "All pupils speak English as their second language and the percentage of pupils who are at the early stages of learning English is high."

Given that there are 394 kids on the register (at the last Ofsted report), a high percentage would suggest that it's more than just the new intake of five year olds who are at the early stages of learning English. I assume this would have been mentioned had it been the case.

Libby, you may well be correct where non-English speaking families move into an area away from their fellow nationals, but that simply isn't the case in east London. I didn't want to use the word 'ghetto', but it's the only phrase which sums the place up. Many of the older people, the parents, can't speak English, and because of their surroundings, they never need to.

[Libby]

I get your point Victor, but surely the children go to English schools so have to speak English thereby learning to be bilingual!

[vania]

I was talking about the kids you heard speaking in the playground, not those on the report. You still haven't said how you automatically knew those kids could not speak English.

And now you have amended it to referring to the parents and 'older people' not being able to speak English, not their kids.

I've already said I understand initially it would be difficult for a teacher confronted with a class full of non-English speakers, but as has been pointed out, kids learn fast.