Politically correct statues

[perrykneeham]

In which case you'd need to believe in a deity.

[Marshall]

True.

I was brought up Presbyterian which wasn't too bad but saw too many inconsistencies early on to think Christianity was what it purported to be.

[wetkingcanute]

Yes...I mentioned Euthyphro's dilemma because it is interesting to debate.

Another thing to talk about is:

The day before Moses came down the mountain with the Ten Commandments was it ok to kill someone?

I don't pretend to know the answer... I'm asking for a friend.

[Marshall]

Yeah, I heard Hitchens mention that.

"Are you going to tell me that before Moses descended from Mt. Sinai everyone thought murder was okay?"

As he said, humanism arises from humans, not religion.

[jimboky]

I don't think a statue of Moses should be beheaded,

[perrykneeham]

I wonder what makes a miracle? Of course, most miracles are just events that are statistically extremely unlikely. Maybe something like raining frogs which, although bizarre and extremely rare, does have a rational explanation.

Calling up such an event at will would be very impressive too. If course, you could probably write that as mathematical chance but I think that, at that stage, even the most stubborn skeptic might be having doubts.

[perrykneeham]

Jun 26, 2020 18:07:05 GMT jimboky said:

I don't think a statue of Moses should be beheaded,

Maybe one of John the Baptist. Or St. Paul.

[Marshall]

Aren't there instances of a person suddenly and unexpectedly dying and someone they are very close but far away has an ominous feeling come over them without knowing why?

How do you explain that?

[perrykneeham]

Chance. That is the rational explanation. Probably the correct one too. It's another one of those cases where something really spooky happens but is probably just coincidencw. Think how many people have died over the years. It stands to reason that someone might have been thinking about a person at exactly the same moment that they croaked it.

[wetkingcanute]

If everyone on this forum said: "well I don't necessarily agree with you but you've made some valid points and I'll go away and consider them before being utterly triggered because reading that someone has a difference of opinion is something that makes society a far far better place."

That would be a miracle

[Marshall]

I don't just mean they think of the person, I mean they are convinced something bad has happened.

Same idea as entangled particles where one can influence the other simultaneously even if they're a hundred light years apart.
There's a non-physical connection there that we can't account for.

[flatandy]

We're often worried that something bad has happened to someone we know.

We remember the very rare times that happens and think there's a magic connection. Confirmation bias, or something like that.

[whiterum]

Jun 26, 2020 18:32:19 GMT wetkingcanute said:

If everyone on this forum said: "well I don't necessarily agree with you but you've made some valid points and I'll go away and consider them before being utterly triggered because reading that someone has a difference of opinion is something that makes society a far far better place."

That would be a miracle

Well if everybody said"its Friday, every thing should be fun" being serious means you don't drink enough,ITS FRIDAY!

[wetkingcanute]

whiterum

well said

I shall now gracefully retire from this forum

[perrykneeham]

Jun 26, 2020 18:56:33 GMT flatandy said:

We're often worried that something bad has happened to someone we know.

We remember the very rare times that happens and think there's a magic connection. Confirmation bias, or something like that.

That sounds about right. That, multiplied by the sheer number of people who have died. I guess it's particularly prevalent - and poignant - when it's some mother back in Blighty, worrying about her young lad in Flanders or somesuch scenario. "I woke up in the night thinking about Junior over there in Vietnam and the very next day the Army turned up to say he was KIA."

Well, yes. He was an infantryman and his chances of getting killed were quite high. Also, you naturally would have been thinking about him. If that scenario was repeated 58,000 times, then there's a good chance that Junior's death and his Mum's worrying would coincide.

[Marshall]

That's why I said unexpected, like a car crash. Not in a war or a cancer ward.
It's admittedly not a very scientific way to prove something but I don't think all such cases can be put down to mere chance.

[voice]

A lot of stuff happens we dont always have a ready explanation for, often it's just coincidence, often its we simply dont have sufficient data to base a full opinion on. Rationalists file it away as unexplained but are open to forming an informed opinion once more is known. However a true believer will always say god did it. I'm sure you've all heard of the God of the Gaps idea. Since really the enlightenment faith and god has been on the run, ince ymir was accepted god was basically responsible for most happening, sometimes the devel if you did something bad, but basically a mythical overlord of some kind. Once we started to understand how things worked and the true causes of phenomena god got pushed into the knowledge gaps, till these days the gaps are incredibly small.

As for the believers themselves, as baloo said many are quiet nice people just going about their faith not really bothering anyone, however far too many have banded together to push their views on everything and everyone. Some countries you get executed if you leave the faith, even in the west many governments are hobbled or beholden to powerful faith groups who try to enact policy, such as taking aways a womans bodily autonomy, or saying who can marry who. Faith like that is insidious, I'd rather it was like sex, done in private between consenting adults.

[flatandy]

Jun 26, 2020 19:26:44 GMT Marshall said:

That's why I said unexpected, like a car crash. Not in a war or a cancer ward.
It's admittedly not a very scientific way to prove something but I don't think all such cases can be put down to mere chance.

But even car crashes and things link up. If you know your missus is working in South Africa and hasn't sent an email in the last hour or two, you begin to worry. 100% of the times that's happened to me, my wife hasn't died. But if there had been a time when she did die in a car crash, and I was already worrying, that would be the time I remember and would point out to everyone

[Marshall]

Yeah I get that. Maybe not the best example.

[Marshall]

But what's empathy all about then?