Living Planet

[moggyonspeed]

It's a question of priorities, van.

For those who prioritise spending their money on tattoos (and a recent study of the UK population shows that 26% DO), or on the latest smartphone (and they're advertised to buggery to ensnare the financially illiterate), or on the latest bingo or gambling app (ditto) doesn't smack of a CoL crisis to me - just a People-Taking-Responsibility crisis. Yes, there are genuine cases of hardship out there - no-one denies that - but much of what one sees on the mainstream media is not genuine hardship and indeed may be self-inflicted.

As a youngish mum was seen and heard on the mainstream local media as saying recently, "I can't afford to feed my five kids", to which the OLD MAN in me thought, "There's part of your problem right there".

[Repat Van]

Jul 18, 2024 10:46:03 GMT moggyonspeed said:

It's a question of priorities, van.

For those who prioritise spending their money on tattoos (and a recent study of the UK population shows that 26% DO), or on the latest smartphone (and they're advertised to buggery to ensnare the financially illiterate), or on the latest bingo or gambling app (ditto) doesn't smack of a CoL crisis to me - just a People-Taking-Responsibility crisis. Yes, there are genuine cases of hardship out there - no-one denies that - but much of what one sees on the mainstream media is not genuine hardship and indeed may be self-inflicted.

As a youngish mum was seen and heard on the mainstream local media as saying recently, "I can't afford to feed my five kids", to which the OLD MAN in me thought, "There's part of your problem right there".

But this is what I mean - it’s this old man wailing at the sky.

People struggling with the CoL crisis aren’t all out there spending money on fluff and nonsense.

We have serious issues in this country with a lot of low paid jobs and an ever increasing cost of living that is leading to a lot of people struggling.

And the fact that person have for a couple of tattoos in their life is not going to change their ability to cope with ever increasing prices on daily essentials.

As I said it’s the same kind of argument that says people can’t afford house deposits because they have a monthly Netflix subscription.

As for the woman with 5 kids - maybe she could afford to feed them when she had them? Maybe her life partner decided to f**k off and abandon them triggering an inability to feed her kids.

Maybe she is from such a socially deprived background that basic life education is something she never received. Or yes maybe she just made a mistake as a lot of individuals from that background do. And fixing that problem is actually going to take MORE state intervention and more cash.

[perrykneeham]

Jul 18, 2024 10:40:42 GMT Repat Van said:

Jul 18, 2024 7:24:16 GMT perrykneeham said:

VAT on private schools is silly, spiteful, dogshit. I guess it's fine if they're also prepared impose VAT on universities.

Well not really. There is no free option for university.

Plenty of free options for schooling. Not sure who it’s spiting either given that those making the laws, overwhelmingly will be paying this VAT if the change is brought in.

I am not massively in favour but I also have zero issue with it either.

You think that the overwhelming balance of Labour MPs a) have kids and b) have them educated privately?

Link?

[perrykneeham]

There is no "free" education in UK, except perhaps home schooling, but even that just means you're paying for a service you don't use.

[moggyonspeed]

"Or yes maybe she just made a mistake as a lot of individuals from that background do." - van.

What background? I didn't mention background in my original response. I didn't even mention that she had her fair share of "body art" either. Even had I shared her background, is not your statement to wit "... as a lot of individuals from that background do" a somewhat sweeping generalisation - generalisations being an accusation you level against others ?

As I say, it's a question of priorities. As British playwright Hanif Kureishi said, “If you want something badly enough, you make arrangements. If you don’t want it badly enough, you make excuses.”

[flatandy]

Jul 18, 2024 7:24:16 GMT perrykneeham said:

VAT on private schools is silly, spiteful, dogshit. I guess it's fine if they're also prepared impose VAT on universities.

University fees are fully controlled by the government and capped at 9 grand a year and there’s theoretically no restrictions on access, and it applies to all universities so there’s no selectivity based on ability to pay. If fee paying schools existed in the same paradigm you could consider treating them the same. Otherwise it’s a silly comparison.

[flatandy]

Jul 18, 2024 10:27:21 GMT Repat Van said:

I cannot believe there are still people who think that the only cost of living crisis is too many people want fancy phones and holidays.

This is on par with the belief that people cannot afford to get on the housing ladder because they have Netflix accounts and go out for avocado on toast from time to time. (Imagine advising parents and kids to just “live in a shared house and manage with a bicycle) to cut costs. LOL!

Oh to live your entire life with such levels of privilege than you have never experienced a household that has to deal with actually living on the breadline….

(Or oh to live your life in such a bubble that you don’t know anybody struggling with the CoL working on the front line dealing with families struggling with the CoL crisis….)

I don’t disagree that people in the UK live in poverty. But most of the people who whine about the cost of living crisis are doing exactly that. Whining. Oh, eggs cost more than they used to. I can’t afford to go on holiday with my three kids and also send them to the fee paying school. Whine whine whine. I am earning 3 times what I used to 10 years ago, but my far-better-than-it-used-to-be laptop costs twice what it did 10 years ago. I used to spend 90p on a cup of sh*t diner coffee and now I spend 5 quid on the iced caramel macchiato.

Whine whine whine.

If the “cost of living crisis” only referred to actual people in poverty I’d be less upset. But it’s still nothing new. It’s not a massive revelation. 20% of the public were in real poverty, 20% of the public still are. It’s crappy and we should have done something about it long ago because we can afford to. But presenting it as a crisis suggests that it’s a new thing that’s just happened and can be quickly resolved.

[flatandy]

Jul 18, 2024 10:32:01 GMT Repat Van said:

But that is not what the COL crisis is about. People are actually struggling for basics and things that were the norm in our parents / grandparents time are becoming more unaffordable now.

In our grandparents time? 12 people in a house. Almost nobody at university. No social safety net. Outside toilets. No central heating. Average lifespans in the 50s for the working class. Only one house in the terrace having a TV. Being forced to listen to the BBC home service.

[mids]

You're forgetting how enormously middle class Vania is.

[moggyonspeed]

I wouldn't want to pass comment as to how middle-class anyone is (even myself); I would merely point out that some people have a different understanding of the Needs vs. Wants paradigm and its 50/30/20 split - a split which is widely seen as the norm.

[mids]

How come your paradigm's a dichotomy and your split is 3 way? (oooeerr)

[voice]

I think there's a couple of things going on, poor people struggling to meet basic needs, despite working full time or more via multiple slave wage jobs or gig jobs, hence the rise of food banks over the last 14 years for example. The reaction to these poor people from those not facing and probably never having faced living like that when they see poor people with a smart phone, going for a weeks holiday to Skegness, having a TV and so on is so often one of "well if they didn't spend money on this stuff then..." as if living with ouy even a small bit of pleasure is how'd they'd do it if in that situation is a reflection of their privelage. It's the same attitude from the same people who's said for years the poor are only poor cos they are thick and lazy.

The other thing is whiney types whining their luxury is costing them more, though they've never had to struggle and sacrifice to have a few small extras

[mids]

I blame immigration.

[perrykneeham]

Jul 18, 2024 14:01:45 GMT flatandy said:

Jul 18, 2024 7:24:16 GMT perrykneeham said:

VAT on private schools is silly, spiteful, dogshit. I guess it's fine if they're also prepared impose VAT on universities.

University fees are fully controlled by the government and capped at 9 grand a year and there’s theoretically no restrictions on access, and it applies to all universities so there’s no selectivity based on ability to pay. If fee paying schools existed in the same paradigm you could consider treating them the same. Otherwise it’s a silly comparison.

Clearly that's nonsense. The ability to pay and the ability to repay are the same thing.

Also, the fees are capped at £ 9,250 in England, £ 9,000 in Wales and are free in McParasitia. Will they have variable VAT rates? Also, the costs of going to uno aren't just about tuition fees, arr they? There is a huge cost for person maintenance.

It's far, far, far from as cut and dried as you'd have us believe.

[perrykneeham]

Jul 18, 2024 14:12:49 GMT flatandy said:

Jul 18, 2024 10:32:01 GMT Repat Van said:

But that is not what the COL crisis is about. People are actually struggling for basics and things that were the norm in our parents / grandparents time are becoming more unaffordable now.

In our grandparents time? 12 people in a house. Almost nobody at university. No social safety net. Outside toilets. No central heating. Average lifespans in the 50s for the working class. Only one house in the terrace having a TV. Being forced to listen to the BBC home service.

Sounds great - where do I sign up?

[Repat Van]

Jul 18, 2024 13:20:57 GMT moggyonspeed said:

"Or yes maybe she just made a mistake as a lot of individuals from that background do." - van.

What background? I didn't mention background in my original response. I didn't even mention that she had her fair share of "body art" either. Even had I shared her background, is not your statement to wit "... as a lot of individuals from that background do" a somewhat sweeping generalisation - generalisations being an accusation you level against others ?

As I say, it's a question of priorities. As British playwright Hanif Kureishi said, “If you want something badly enough, you make arrangements. If you don’t want it badly enough, you make excuses.”

I used the word “maybe” for a reason as you made an assumption about her decision to have five children and her financial status.

Her body art is irrelevant. Unless you know she got it after her financial difficulties / children or even if she paid for it herself. You seem to have a real hard on for tattoos for some strange reason.

You keep talking about priories but have no evidence these people are not prioritising correctly.

Hanif Kureishi sounds like an idiot.

[Repat Van]

Jul 18, 2024 14:12:49 GMT flatandy said:

Jul 18, 2024 10:32:01 GMT Repat Van said:

But that is not what the COL crisis is about. People are actually struggling for basics and things that were the norm in our parents / grandparents time are becoming more unaffordable now.

In our grandparents time? 12 people in a house. Almost nobody at university. No social safety net. Outside toilets. No central heating. Average lifespans in the 50s for the working class. Only one house in the terrace having a TV. Being forced to listen to the BBC home service.

My grandparents were raising kids in the 60s /70s / 80s and absolutely were not living 12 in a house but were able to raise families on one income and faced housing prices that were not remotely near the multipliers we are seeing now

To be clear though, arguing that people not willing to live in Victorian era levels of squalor is a sign they are just being “entitled” is not making the point you think it is.

[Repat Van]

Jul 18, 2024 14:59:33 GMT moggyonspeed said:

I wouldn't want to pass comment as to how middle-class anyone is (even myself); I would merely point out that some people have a different understanding of the Needs vs. Wants paradigm and its 50/30/20 split - a split which is widely seen as the norm.

LOL! That split is seen as a target. For many people, those struggling with the cost of living crisis - they cannot achieve anything like that. Housing costs in some cities push the wants well in excess of 50% of many household incomes.

[Repat Van]

Jul 18, 2024 15:27:10 GMT voice said:

I think there's a couple of things going on, poor people struggling to meet basic needs, despite working full time or more via multiple slave wage jobs or gig jobs, hence the rise of food banks over the last 14 years for example. The reaction to these poor people from those not facing and probably never having faced living like that when they see poor people with a smart phone, going for a weeks holiday to Skegness, having a TV and so on is so often one of "well if they didn't spend money on this stuff then..." as if living with ouy even a small bit of pleasure is how'd they'd do it if in that situation is a reflection of their privelage. It's the same attitude from the same people who's said for years the poor are only poor cos they are thick and lazy.

The other thing is whiney types whining their luxury is costing them more, though they've never had to struggle and sacrifice to have a few small extras

I think a lot of people commenting here are showing their privilege tbh.


It is hard for them to imagine something they have never experience. Even using the stupid example of an iPhone. How much money do you think they save annually not having one? I have one. It cost me approx 6-700 in 2019. So five years. Converting that into a an annual amount is approximately 140 a year. How much is that really going to help pull somebody out of policy.

I wish people would actually leave their middle class bubbles and see how some people are actually struggling in this country. Talk to people who work in schools, healthcare, social work (I know a lot of social workers and the stories you hear are horrifying).

It’s not holidays and tattoos and if somebody on the breadline does take 10 years to save up to treat themself to a small bit of happiness in the form of a cheap holiday or a refurbished iPhone - so? It’s not like avoiding that is going to help with the overall cost of living crisis.

[Repat Van]

Jul 18, 2024 14:08:24 GMT flatandy said:

Jul 18, 2024 10:27:21 GMT Repat Van said:

I cannot believe there are still people who think that the only cost of living crisis is too many people want fancy phones and holidays.

This is on par with the belief that people cannot afford to get on the housing ladder because they have Netflix accounts and go out for avocado on toast from time to time. (Imagine advising parents and kids to just “live in a shared house and manage with a bicycle) to cut costs. LOL!

Oh to live your entire life with such levels of privilege than you have never experienced a household that has to deal with actually living on the breadline….

(Or oh to live your life in such a bubble that you don’t know anybody struggling with the CoL working on the front line dealing with families struggling with the CoL crisis….)

I don’t disagree that people in the UK live in poverty. But most of the people who whine about the cost of living crisis are doing exactly that. Whining. Oh, eggs cost more than they used to. I can’t afford to go on holiday with my three kids and also send them to the fee paying school. Whine whine whine. I am earning 3 times what I used to 10 years ago, but my far-better-than-it-used-to-be laptop costs twice what it did 10 years ago. I used to spend 90p on a cup of sh*t diner coffee and now I spend 5 quid on the iced caramel macchiato.

Whine whine whine.

If the “cost of living crisis” only referred to actual people in poverty I’d be less upset. But it’s still nothing new. It’s not a massive revelation. 20% of the public were in real poverty, 20% of the public still are. It’s crappy and we should have done something about it long ago because we can afford to. But presenting it as a crisis suggests that it’s a new thing that’s just happened and can be quickly resolved.

I think this says more about the insanely privileged circles that you move in that people you know complaining about the CoL crisis are whining about school fees and overseas holidays.

The people I know complaining are whining about being unable to turn on the heat in the home in the dead of winter or cutting back on meals due to the increased CoL.

Or worrying about having to take on a second job to try to keep their head above water but then worrying about any repercussions in leaving their kids at home alone to do so.

Not the same.