voice
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Goals are a form of self inflicted slavery
Posts: 41,298
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Post by voice on Jul 18, 2024 16:59:44 GMT
There's always the assumption the system just needs a tweek here and there to fix many of the problems of poverty, but the fact is the system is working exactly as it's designed and organised to work.
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Post by flatandy on Jul 18, 2024 18:18:45 GMT
My grandparents were raising kids in the 60s /70s / 80s and absolutely were not living 12 in a house but were able to raise families on one income and faced housing prices that were not remotely near the multipliers we are seeing now To be clear though, arguing that people not willing to live in Victorian era levels of squalor is a sign they are just being “entitled” is not making the point you think it is. So Mids is right that you’re shockingly middle class? I think you’re missing the point. There were people living in worse squalor and poverty in my grandparents time than there are now. Just because some grandparents could raise kids on a single income doesn’t mean it was universal and the current poverty is a new “crisis”. |
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Post by flatandy on Jul 18, 2024 18:54:05 GMT
The iPhone example is, I think, a good one. To live in the modern world you need an internet connection and a workable smart phone and access to some data. But the cost of a low end but sufficiently good smart phone is around a hundred quid - split over say three or four years - and a low end but sufficiently sim only good data package for under 10 quid a month, I think. So you’re looking at about 150 quid a year as the basic amount someone needs for mobile. Everything on top of that is luxury.
This is true across many areas. A lot of people are pleading “poverty” when in fact they just can’t afford all the nice things. Which sucks, but has always been the case. In Van’s grandparents era many people couldn’t afford the luxuries that Van’s grandparents had. And there’s nothing wrong with people wanting nice things, or even having nice things. But you have to work to afford them, or make some sacrifices in order to choose which nice thing you want.
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Post by flatandy on Jul 18, 2024 19:01:24 GMT
The people I know complaining are whining about being unable to turn on the heat in the home in the dead of winter or cutting back on meals due to the increased CoL. One more on this: a lot of the people whining about being able to turn on the heat are perfectly able to turn on the heat. Yes, once again, I know there are people in real poverty. Nothing new, again. And they should be able to afford to heat their homes - or better still not need to because homes have been upgraded to not be fuel-wasteful leaky sh*t-hovels. But loads of the people whining are old people who own their own homes outright and have savings and just don’t have enough new income to cover the costs. And who refuse to burn through savings or the value of their assets. Even though that’s the whole point of those things. Lots of the people who whine are the Boomers who are like Van’s grandparents who already had the only generation that got free everything and could work half a job and never have to worry and had life tenures and got a full pension, who had their parents paying for their “free” university education and “free” NHS for their kids; and who now have their kids and grandkids paying for their pensions and their elder care. But who’re still whining that they might have to remortgage their house they bought for 30k which now has half a million quid in equity so they can heat it. |
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Post by perrykneeham on Jul 18, 2024 20:10:54 GMT
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Post by perrykneeham on Jul 18, 2024 21:14:02 GMT
Two weeks in and Leeds is on fire. Nobody knows why.
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mids
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Post by mids on Jul 18, 2024 21:37:20 GMT
Ah, enrichment. Enkeirment.
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Post by Repat Van on Jul 18, 2024 21:40:21 GMT
The people I know complaining are whining about being unable to turn on the heat in the home in the dead of winter or cutting back on meals due to the increased CoL. One more on this: a lot of the people whining about being able to turn on the heat are perfectly able to turn on the heat. Yes, once again, I know there are people in real poverty. Nothing new, again. And they should be able to afford to heat their homes - or better still not need to because homes have been upgraded to not be fuel-wasteful leaky sh*t-hovels. But loads of the people whining are old people who own their own homes outright and have savings and just don’t have enough new income to cover the costs. And who refuse to burn through savings or the value of their assets. Even though that’s the whole point of those things. Lots of the people who whine are the Boomers who are like Van’s grandparents who already had the only generation that got free everything and could work half a job and never have to worry and had life tenures and got a full pension, who had their parents paying for their “free” university education and “free” NHS for their kids; and who now have their kids and grandkids paying for their pensions and their elder care. But who’re still whining that they might have to remortgage their house they bought for 30k which now has half a million quid in equity so they can heat it. You are technically right - they can turn on the heat but not pay for it. For some weird reasons utilities companies won’t let you use their products for free and will absolutely cut you off if you try. And a lot of people aren’t owning their own homes - they are dealing with the sh*t show of the private rental market. |
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mids
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Post by mids on Jul 18, 2024 21:40:28 GMT
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Post by Repat Van on Jul 18, 2024 21:41:40 GMT
My grandparents were raising kids in the 60s /70s / 80s and absolutely were not living 12 in a house but were able to raise families on one income and faced housing prices that were not remotely near the multipliers we are seeing now To be clear though, arguing that people not willing to live in Victorian era levels of squalor is a sign they are just being “entitled” is not making the point you think it is. So Mids is right that you’re shockingly middle class? I think you’re missing the point. There were people living in worse squalor and poverty in my grandparents time than there are now. Just because some grandparents could raise kids on a single income doesn’t mean it was universal and the current poverty is a new “crisis”. Only if your weird definition of “middle class” means “raising kids in the 60s/70s/80s. And maybe not raise children on a full sole income but 1.5 and still find a way to save for a place to live which is not doable now. Why are people pretending that the house price to average income ratio has not changed? It has more than doubled since the 70s. (Although house prices are just a side conversation as a lot of the people being crippled by the COL crisis cannot afford to purchase and never will.) And Mids is like Jon Snow. He knows nothing. |
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Post by Repat Van on Jul 18, 2024 21:44:34 GMT
The iPhone example is, I think, a good one. To live in the modern world you need an internet connection and a workable smart phone and access to some data. But the cost of a low end but sufficiently good smart phone is around a hundred quid - split over say three or four years - and a low end but sufficiently sim only good data package for under 10 quid a month, I think. So you’re looking at about 150 quid a year as the basic amount someone needs for mobile. Everything on top of that is luxury. This is true across many areas. A lot of people are pleading “poverty” when in fact they just can’t afford all the nice things. Which sucks, but has always been the case. In Van’s grandparents era many people couldn’t afford the luxuries that Van’s grandparents had. And there’s nothing wrong with people wanting nice things, or even having nice things. But you have to work to afford them, or make some sacrifices in order to choose which nice thing you want. My grandparents had “luxuries”. This will be news to them (if they were alive). News to my parents too. But yes if your definition of “luxury” is “not Victorian era squalor” then yes - “luxury.” |
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Post by Repat Van on Jul 18, 2024 21:45:56 GMT
But as I said this just shows that people who come from privilege cannot fathom those who do not and have determined that their inability to afford life just comes from having the wrong “priorities” such as avoiding school fees and cutting down to only 3 overseas holidays a year….
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Post by flatandy on Jul 18, 2024 22:43:02 GMT
One more on this: a lot of the people whining about being able to turn on the heat are perfectly able to turn on the heat. Yes, once again, I know there are people in real poverty. Nothing new, again. And they should be able to afford to heat their homes - or better still not need to because homes have been upgraded to not be fuel-wasteful leaky sh*t-hovels. But loads of the people whining are old people who own their own homes outright and have savings and just don’t have enough new income to cover the costs. And who refuse to burn through savings or the value of their assets. Even though that’s the whole point of those things. Lots of the people who whine are the Boomers who are like Van’s grandparents who already had the only generation that got free everything and could work half a job and never have to worry and had life tenures and got a full pension, who had their parents paying for their “free” university education and “free” NHS for their kids; and who now have their kids and grandkids paying for their pensions and their elder care. But who’re still whining that they might have to remortgage their house they bought for 30k which now has half a million quid in equity so they can heat it. You are technically right - they can turn on the heat but not pay for it. For some weird reasons utilities companies won’t let you use their products for free and will absolutely cut you off if you try. And a lot of people aren’t owning their own homes - they are dealing with the sh*t show of the private rental market. Why are you misrepresenting my argument? I know some people are renting and can’t afford heat. Most of the people who whine about not being able to afford it absolutely could if they actually wanted and didn’t feel entitled to not use the assets they acquired when younger |
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Post by flatandy on Jul 18, 2024 22:46:42 GMT
So Mids is right that you’re shockingly middle class? I think you’re missing the point. There were people living in worse squalor and poverty in my grandparents time than there are now. Just because some grandparents could raise kids on a single income doesn’t mean it was universal and the current poverty is a new “crisis”. Only if your weird definition of “middle class” means “raising kids in the 60s/70s/80s. And maybe not raise children on a full sole income but 1.5 and still find a way to save for a place to live which is not doable now. Why are people pretending that the house price to average income ratio has not changed? It has more than doubled since the 70s. (Although house prices are just a side conversation as a lot of the people being crippled by the COL crisis cannot afford to purchase and never will.) And Mids is like Jon Snow. He knows nothing. House price to income ratios are not a worthwhile comparison. What you need is inflation adjusted income after housing costs have come out. I’d bet people in the 2020s - median or mean - are better off using that comparison than in the 70s even though housing is insanely expensive. Obvz housing costs should come down and massive amounts of urban high density accommodation should be built and the public should expect to live in high density housing for all kinds of reasons. But that doesn’t make this a Cost of Living Crisis |
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Post by Repat Van on Jul 18, 2024 23:43:36 GMT
Only if your weird definition of “middle class” means “raising kids in the 60s/70s/80s. And maybe not raise children on a full sole income but 1.5 and still find a way to save for a place to live which is not doable now. Why are people pretending that the house price to average income ratio has not changed? It has more than doubled since the 70s. (Although house prices are just a side conversation as a lot of the people being crippled by the COL crisis cannot afford to purchase and never will.) And Mids is like Jon Snow. He knows nothing. House price to income ratios are not a worthwhile comparison. What you need is inflation adjusted income after housing costs have come out. I’d bet people in the 2020s - median or mean - are better off using that comparison than in the 70s even though housing is insanely expensive. Obvz housing costs should come down and massive amounts of urban high density accommodation should be built and the public should expect to live in high density housing for all kinds of reasons. But that doesn’t make this a Cost of Living Crisis Nope even adjusting for inflation they are worse off now on the specific topic of housing. You saying it’s not a cost of living crisis because your rich friends struggle with private school fees does not mean it’s not a COL crisis that is being felt by most regular people. |
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Post by Repat Van on Jul 18, 2024 23:44:29 GMT
You are technically right - they can turn on the heat but not pay for it. For some weird reasons utilities companies won’t let you use their products for free and will absolutely cut you off if you try. And a lot of people aren’t owning their own homes - they are dealing with the sh*t show of the private rental market. Why are you misrepresenting my argument? I know some people are renting and can’t afford heat. Most of the people who whine about not being able to afford it absolutely could if they actually wanted and didn’t feel entitled to not use the assets they acquired when younger What assets are these? How much younger? By “most people” you seem to mean “wealthy pensioners”. Who is talking about wealthy pensioners? |
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Post by flatandy on Jul 19, 2024 3:04:12 GMT
House price to income ratios are not a worthwhile comparison. What you need is inflation adjusted income after housing costs have come out. I’d bet people in the 2020s - median or mean - are better off using that comparison than in the 70s even though housing is insanely expensive. Obvz housing costs should come down and massive amounts of urban high density accommodation should be built and the public should expect to live in high density housing for all kinds of reasons. But that doesn’t make this a Cost of Living Crisis Nope even adjusting for inflation they are worse off now on the specific topic of housing. You saying it’s not a cost of living crisis because your rich friends struggle with private school fees does not mean it’s not a COL crisis that is being felt by most regular people. Misrepresenting me again. Or not reading. I’m saying that too many of the reports of it being a novel “crisis” come from people with no sense of perspective and think that there’s a crisis because they can’t afford a skiing holiday alongside their normal summer trip to Tuscany now they have three kids who’re all in fee paying schools. Normal people know that poverty is pervasive and serious and endemic and isn’t new and anyone who thinks there wasn’t cost of living problems in the 60s or 70s or 80s was clearly freakishly insulated. |
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Post by flatandy on Jul 19, 2024 3:08:41 GMT
Nope even adjusting for inflation they are worse off now on the specific topic of housing. . What does this nonsense even mean? They have massively more income but because housing has risen above inflation their relative spending on housing is more? True, but people also have much more non-housing income because general wealth has outpaced inflation for, basically, all eternity. Your point does not counter mine. It’s just bizarre. |
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mids
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Post by mids on Jul 19, 2024 6:18:14 GMT
I see Labour's Leeds is a smoking ruin.
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Post by perrykneeham on Jul 19, 2024 6:20:51 GMT
"We would strongly discourage residents from speculating on the cause of this disorder which we believe has been instigated by a criminal minority intent on disrupting community relations."
Haha. The new default position.
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