Ukraine

[perrykneeham]

What with? Russia is shite.

[ootlg]

Hope you're right. They've plenty of manpower, big army and all that. France and the UK are the only countries with a viable defence. And if Trump gets back in he's likely to support Putin.

[perrykneeham]

If Trump gets back in, I would welcome the Russians.

[bertruss2]

France and the UK are the only countries with a viable defence.

Nuclear weapons are the means of entering into a suicide pact with another nuclear power. They're usually touted as a deterrent but they don't seem to deter. Russia was not deterred from annexing Crimea and it's not been deterred from supporting separatists in the Donbas region of Ukraine since 2014.

[ootlg]

Ukraine doesn't have the nuclear deterrent.

[perrykneeham]

I thought Bert had been quiet. This week's copy of Socialist Worker must be out now, so he has an opinion.

[Marshall]

The State Department on Friday approved a long-awaited $6 billion deal to sell Poland 250 Abrams tanks, an announcement that comes as more U.S. troops and aircraft flood into the country in the face of a possible Russian invasion of Ukraine.

www.politico.com/news/2022/02/18/putin-tank-deal-poland-00010107

[bertruss2]

Feb 18, 2022 12:05:26 GMT ootlg said:

Ukraine doesn't have the nuclear deterrent.

This is a confrontation between America and Russia.

[perrykneeham]

This is a confrontation between Russia and freedom, democracy, prosperity and law. And sanity.

[perrykneeham]

On the face of it, this looks very worrying but, if our amateur strategising is correct, it is the natural next step in brinksmanship:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60436938

The trouble making by separatists in the Eastern provinces may be just that: an attempt to force Russia's hand. I think Putin knows he's been checkmated but is still hissing and puffing his chest out for home consumption.

[ootlg]

Feb 19, 2022 0:59:33 GMT bertruss2 said:

Feb 18, 2022 12:05:26 GMT ootlg said:

Ukraine doesn't have the nuclear deterrent.

This is a confrontation between America and Russia.

This is Putin over-reacting to the right of neighbouring countries to defend themselves. I'd always hoped Russia and Europe could form a good strong relationship but Putin's blown it, a) by the undemocratic seizing of personal power in his own country, b) by the suppression of freedom of speech in his own country, and c) by this latest display of paranoid megalomania towards his neighbours. He needs to go.

[perrykneeham]

I think the Pentagon's long game here is to actually appeal to Russian nationalistic pride in the hope that Putin will make a laughing stock of Russia and people will get sick of being poor, boring and backwards. That, I suspect, partly influences Putin's concerns about a free, prosperous Ukraine, especially one where ethnic Russians are doing very nicely and nobody is giving the a hard time (real or imagined) least of all their own criminal government.

[ootlg]

We (used to) get a fair few Russian tourists around here and it has to be said that the ones I've met were sound, good people.

[ootlg]

What I'm saying is that he could be on a loser with the Russian people.

[perrykneeham]

I think that's the plan.

[perrykneeham]

I see the Russians have a unit called 7th Guards Mountain Air Assault Division.

Pick a specialism, guys.

[bertruss2]

This is Putin over-reacting to the right of neighbouring countries to defend themselves.

There are three sides to international disputes. In this one, there is the USA and their NATO alliance and Russia and its friends. The third 'side' is those who support the principles of non-violence in the UN Charter. It's true that peace is likely a lost cause but that's no reason to imagine that building massive military forces on both sides of the conflict is the sanest form of defence. Two world wars and the prospect of nuclear war say otherwise.

[perrykneeham]

Hang on, you said there were two sides to this confrontation. Get a grip.

[perrykneeham]

Feb 19, 2022 0:59:33 GMT bertruss2 said:

Feb 18, 2022 12:05:26 GMT ootlg said:

Ukraine doesn't have the nuclear deterrent.

This is a confrontation between America and Russia.

Right here.

[perrykneeham]

Feb 19, 2022 9:18:04 GMT bertruss2 said:

This is Putin over-reacting to the right of neighbouring countries to defend themselves.

There are three sides to international disputes. In this one, there is the USA and their NATO alliance and Russia and its friends. The third 'side' is those who support the principles of non-violence in the UN Charter. It's true that peace is likely a lost cause but that's no reason to imagine that building massive military forces on both sides of the conflict is the sanest form of defence. Two world wars and the prospect of nuclear war say otherwise.

Moron.