dwad
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Post by dwad on Jan 29, 2009 9:48:01 GMT
Well clearly he doesn't follow the Cobbsian strand of Islam, so if that's what you mean by "not a true believer" then he is not. He certainly thinks of himself as a Muslim and believes in God though.
Without wanting to re-open old wounds between you and Cobbs, I do always feel he has a point with this. Of course a person's faith is between them and their God and judging it is pretty pointless. But it's pretty dememaning to actual Muslims claiming that "believing in God" makes you a Muslim. It could also make you a Satanist.
What's the point in believing in God and then ignoring what he says in the Koran/Bible/stars/prophets/whatever. What sort of God is it you believe in if it doesn't have any impact on your life? Certainly not a God portrayed in any theistic faith I've come across.
I'm not saying people don't believe it, but in a logic way (not an actual way) I have more respect (sort of) for the Stephen Green, mad mullahs of this world in the sense that they are at least nailing their colours to something.
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VikingHumpingWitch
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Jan 29, 2009 9:55:11 GMT
You can ignore or choose how to interpret bits of the Bible, why is it so hard to grasp that Muslims do the same? Because, clearly, there is not universal agreement on What The Koran Means.
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Post by jonren on Jan 29, 2009 10:02:26 GMT
That is true. Both the Bible and the Koran contain many contradictions. Mans' different interpretations cause most of the trouble and religious conflict. I believe nothing of either set of 'fairy tales'. Those who believe are entitled to their opinion as I am.
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dwad
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Post by dwad on Jan 29, 2009 10:11:59 GMT
You can ignore or choose how to interpret bits of the Bible, why is it so hard to grasp that Muslims do the same? Because, clearly, there is not universal agreement on What The Koran Means. Yeah, I have no problem with disagreements and contradictions. What I struggle with is people who don't even try to disagree with it/read it. If you're claiming to believe in an omnipotent benificent God, surely you'd try and do what he says and if not have good reason. Otherwise I would slightly question whether you believe in that God. |
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VikingHumpingWitch
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Jan 29, 2009 10:17:51 GMT
Yes, but that's because that's how you did it. Most people I've ever met who were religious are exactly the same religion as their parents and believe because that's how they were brought up. It is how the majority of people are. F'rinstance, the Koran says don't consume stuff that could damage you - some Muslims will not touch alcohol on this basis, others happily drink and chow through khat and smoke weed and so on. It's just spectacularly retarded to assume that everyone who believes in a particular god practices their religion in the same way, because the world pretty clearly shows this ain't the case.
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dwad
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Post by dwad on Jan 29, 2009 10:20:43 GMT
Yes, but that's because that's how you did it. Most people I've ever met who were religious are exactly the same religion as their parents and believe because that's how they were brought up. It is how the majority of people are. F'rinstance, the Koran says don't consume stuff that could damage you - some Muslims will not touch alcohol on this basis, others happily drink and chow through khat and smoke weed and so on. It's just spectacularly retarded to assume that everyone who believes in a particular god practices their religion in the same way, because the world pretty clearly shows this ain't the case. So if I call myself a ballet dancer on the basis that I once had a Michale Jackson dance off competition in my living room and my dad took lessons as a child, does that make me one? |
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dwad
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Post by dwad on Jan 29, 2009 10:23:22 GMT
It's just spectacularly retarded to assume that everyone who believes in a particular god practices their religion in the same way, because the world pretty clearly shows this ain't the case. I suppose this sentence is the crux of it. Of course it can be practiced in a different way but if you make no effort to practise it or to reconcile your actions with it in any way, then your proclamation has a very hollow ring. |
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Post by jonren on Jan 29, 2009 10:24:13 GMT
My father was a fruit picker and my mother a baker. Does that make me a fruitcake?
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dwad
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Post by dwad on Jan 29, 2009 10:25:50 GMT
My father was a fruit picker and my mother a baker. Does that make me a fruitcake? The evidence is compelling..... |
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VikingHumpingWitch
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Jan 29, 2009 10:29:27 GMT
Well. I do have to agree, most of the religious people I have known have been monumental hypocrits, apparently Being Religious makes it very easy to find ways to condemn others and excuse your own behaviour. I never said I like it. Just that Cobbs's "wait til the kid is born, he'll have it in a burkha before it's fully out the womb" response was amusing.
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VikingHumpingWitch
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"My philosophy in life is keep dry and keep away from children. I got it from a matchbox."
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Jan 29, 2009 10:40:01 GMT
Ooh, another religious hypocrisy - we have two minimarket corner shop type things in our estate, the biggest one is owned by a Turkish guy called Mohammed. He won't stock even the 3.5% cans of beer, I assume for religious reasons, but he is poking a woman called Analie even though he's married.
It never ends I tellee.
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dwad
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Post by dwad on Jan 29, 2009 10:46:32 GMT
Whilst religious folk do have a near monopoly on hypocrisy I suppose I'm trying to decrease the strangle hold and say that I think some are just non-religous wannabes and cowards.
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mids
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Post by mids on Jan 29, 2009 10:48:55 GMT
Ooh, another religious hypocrisy - we have two minimarket corner shop type things in our estate, the biggest one is owned by a Turkish guy called Mohammed. He won't stock even the 3.5% cans of beer, I assume for religious reasons, but he is poking a woman called Analie even though he's married. It never ends I tellee. Well I never. Gossip from the frozen north. Those long sunless winter days must fly by... |
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VikingHumpingWitch
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"My philosophy in life is keep dry and keep away from children. I got it from a matchbox."
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Jan 29, 2009 10:53:05 GMT
Oh I got loads if you want it. People tell me all kinds of stuff, god knows why they think I want to know since I never pass any on (not counting the post above because none of you live in Gothenburg).
Mohammed has a teenage son who has the mediterranean skin thing but has blue eyes. Never any shortage of teenage girlies hanging round the shop when he's working there.
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Post by vania on Jan 29, 2009 11:22:50 GMT
As Judaism is matriarchal and Islam patriarchal I can see why there would be a greater chance of a relationship between a muslim man/jewish woman than the other way round.
Incidentally in relation to what Cobbs said about Muslim women marrying 'infidels', I'm sure I've mentioned my muslim (female) friend married to a man of the Greek Orthodox faith.
Now she doesn't want to go around killing all non-Muslims and she doesn't wear a burkha so I guess according to Cobbs she isn't a muslim. But she sees herself as muslim based on how she was raised. The fact she went to Koranic and Arabic classes as a child and her daughter (from a previous relationship) has been raised a muslim. I don't think they have any plans to raise the child particularly religiously but he/her will be raised with faith in God and if ti's a boy he will be circumcised.
And no her husband did not convert, although they still managed to have a Nikkah.
The friend I was staying with in New York is also Muslim and last year broke up with her non Muslim (Jewish Israeli descent) boyfriend.
The problem was his family, and him turning out to be a weirdo.
Ironically I think all this instances of people burring the faith/culture lines is actually something Cobbs detests.
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Post by kjetski on Jan 29, 2009 12:00:26 GMT
Gaza residents returning to their homes in Zeitun neighborhood find their houses covered with slogans such as 'Death to Arabs,' and 'One down, 999,999 to go.' IDF: Those responsible will be reprimanded A painful reminder for Operation Cast Lead remained evident in Gaza in the form of blatant, racist graffiti sprayed on houses' walls by IDF soldiers. Sounds like guys just blowing off steam. Only the biased left wing press would make an issue of spray painting when they should be covering acts of terror committed by Hamas. Residents of the Zeitun neighborhood who returned to their homes once the fighting in the region was over discovered that their walls had been sprayed with slogans such as " Die you all," Make war not peace," "Death to Arabs," "Arabs must die," and "One down, 999,999 to go."Some of the graffiti was sprayed on the ruins of the homes of the al-Samuni family, who lost dozens of its members during the war. An IDF spokesman said in response to the report: "This is not how IDF soldiers are educated. This goes against the IDF's ethical code. The matter is being investigated and those responsible for it will be severely reprimanded." www.ynetnews.com/a.../0,7340,L-3663008,00.html |
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Post by cobblers on Jan 29, 2009 12:33:18 GMT
It's just spectacularly retarded to assume that everyone who believes in a particular god practices their religion in the same way, because the world pretty clearly shows this ain't the case. I suppose this sentence is the crux of it. Of course it can be practiced in a different way but if you make no effort to practise it or to reconcile your actions with it in any way, then your proclamation has a very hollow ring. Not everyone practices in the same way, and there are divergences of opinion over trivial matters. But what you will never understand, unless you actually read the texts, is the central drive, the core, of the religion. Now it seems to me you are referring to nominal accidental and uncommitted muslims and trying to hold them up as typical. As for your example of Analie (interesting name), Analie (the girl not the practice) is permissible for Mohammed if she is an infidel. If she is an infidel she is part of Dar al-Harb, as you will perhaps remember muslim men are permitted to marry who your right hand does possess. This is how many muslim men justify sleeping around - with infidels only. What I think the problem is is you are looking at a totally different Islamic culture through western eyes. 'Oh I just grew up in a nominally christian muslim household, we went to church Friday prayers a bit but I never went into it all that much.' Islamic faith is much stronger, there are familial and social mechanisms for keeping people in check. Islam may in some cases fade into the background of their lives, but unless they repudiate it, they'll always come back. Seems that at times like marriage and the birth of children, either the family starts to exert islamic pressure or the lapsed muslim rediscovers their piety. Earlier you referred to the 'Cobbsian strand of Islam'. I would argue that while there are different sects who may on occasion hate each other with a vengeance, there is little real difference about the core beliefs and the common enemy of all the sects - unbelief and unbelievers. If, as all muslims are required to do as a basic tenet of their faith, you believe the Koran is the perfect unaltered revealed word of God, see Mohammed as the perfect example of man, there is really only one strand of Islam. Basically you're saying 'They're exactly the same as us'. I think that's cos you don't recognise the deep deep effect of culture on successive generations of people. You don't recognise it in yourself (hence your oft-repeated 'what is English/Swedish culture anyway?) so you can't recognise it in others. So you see shopkeeper Mohammed down the road and discount his heritage (a heritage which you don't understand or refuse to believe anyway) and think 'he's exactly the same as me'. You assume he disapproves of all the 'nasty' bits of the Koran that you disapprove of, forgetting that it is your cultural background and upbringing that make you disapprove of them. Mohammed's cultural background will have taught him otherwise. |
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VikingHumpingWitch
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"My philosophy in life is keep dry and keep away from children. I got it from a matchbox."
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Jan 29, 2009 12:45:20 GMT
He's bugger all like me, he won't even sell beer, for me beer is a fundamental part of my cultural heritage.
I make no assumption on what he believes, and I'm not interested enough to ask him. I'm just using it as an example that someone can follow a religion without following all of its tenets. Just as Dwad ignores the "neither a borrower or a lender be" and stuff in the Bible.
Also, you're way off on what I believe about culture. It's obvious that culture dictates a huge amount of behaviour, that's why Islam as practiced in, say, Afghanistan is so different from Islam as practiced in, say, Indonesia.
I think where we miss each other is that you stick to the idea that Muslims believe the Koran to be the word of God and thus must be obeyed. I don't disagree at all, but I think people are much more flawed and most are not really capable of or inclined to follow all the requirements of a religion. Some try harder than others but, while I know lots of people with some sort of belief in divinity, I have really only met a handful of truly serious (fanatical?) faithful whose lives are dominated by their faith - and that includes the years when I went to Mass every week. In that respect yes, I think people from Muslim countries/cultures/backgrounds are every bit as fallible as everyone else.
Thank you for your thoughtful and courteous reply.
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dwad
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Post by dwad on Jan 29, 2009 12:52:50 GMT
Just as Dwad ignores the "neither a borrower or a lender be" and stuff in the Bible. Ha ha ha. In fairness I ignore "neither a borrower nor a lender be" because it's a quote from Hamlet.... |
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VikingHumpingWitch
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"My philosophy in life is keep dry and keep away from children. I got it from a matchbox."
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Jan 29, 2009 12:57:48 GMT
Heh, ok. Worrever it says about not charging excessive interest or something, I hope you'll be remembering that when you are raping your tenants.
BTW while we're at it, what were God's directives on food? I am sure I read something about not eating birds, or potatoes, or there was something particularly hilarious and food related I read a while back, can you help?
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