IDF soldiers spray racist graffiti on Gaza hom

[cobblers]

How is it 'so different' in Afghanistan and Indonesia? Cosmetically perhaps to your eyes it is.

"I'm just using it as an example that someone can follow a religion without following all of its tenets."

Well first off there's a difference between 'following' and 'believing to be part of the religion'. There's a significant difference between a lapsed muslim and one like Irshad Manji who is very bravely/follishly trying to reinterpret and rewrite Islam.

In the case of the lapsed muslim, maybe they're too lazy or undisciplined to do as they know they should. It doesn't change the religion and what it says is to be done in certain areas.

And the existence of a few of these lapsed muslims does not make the intrinsic hostility of Islam (note my emphasis on the ideology rather than this or that idiosyncratic individual I may be able to find) to the non muslim world any the less.

ps You're welcome.

[dwad]

Heh, ok. Worrever it says about not charging excessive interest or something, I hope you'll be remembering that when you are raping your tenants.

If it helps, I charge my tennants exactly what it takies to cover the mortgage, without interest, significantly under market rate and cover all reasonable breakages on top. The one in the smallest room is paying just £300 a month for a room in a nice flat in Putney.

BTW while we're at it, what were God's directives on food? I am sure I read something about not eating birds, or potatoes, or there was something particularly hilarious and food related I read a while back, can you help?

Don't know. Was it about birds or birds?

[cobblers]

If you want the long list of ridiculous Christian rules open up the book of Leviticus, any page VHW. Or is it Deuteronomy Dwad?

But Christians are less literal on the whole than muslims. For one thing, they believe that the bible was written by man. God is quoted, sure, but it is not the unaltered direct word of God. Then there are the two covenenants, the old and the new. With the new it is easy to see what the central message is and the old rules are not accentuated and repeated by Jesus. He went round feeding the five thousand and preaching love forgiveness, he didn't say don't eat prawns.

[VikingHumpingWitch]

"And the existence of a few of these lapsed muslims does not make the intrinsic hostility of Islam (note my emphasis on the ideology rather than this or that idiosyncratic individual I may be able to find) to the non muslim world any the less."

No indeed. Incidentally are there any major religions beside Judaism which are not intrinsically hostile to unbelievers?

I suppose it boils down to whether you believe the majority of people are inclined towards excessive religiosity or not. I think not.

A random thought though - IMHO the UK is going to see an increase in fundie Muslimness among young Muslims unless this demonising of Muslims stops really soon. Because teenagers rebel, and the easiest way to do that in 2009 Britain is to head backwards into your religion. Tell them not to do it and they'll be leaping into burkhas and bushy beards quicker than you say what's wrong with drinking and shagging like we did when we were teens.

[dwad]

Incidentally are there any major religions beside Judaism which are not intrinsically hostile to unbelievers?

I can only think of Islam that overtly is hostile.

On the teenage rebellion thing I think you're right in the same way that Israel's action in Gaza (for all the right or wrongs) will recruit new soldiers for Hamas.

[VikingHumpingWitch]

Deutoronomy definitely got some good laughs in it. I think Leviticus is the one with all the don't wear cotton/nylon mixes in it, also funny.

There are Christians who believe the Bible should be taken literally. There are a lot of them in the US, almost all of my family for starters. That there are intelligent people elsewhere capable of ignoring parts of the OT or reinterpreting them as allegorical just goes to show wot I mean about people not following religious texts in the same way.

Actually, I think a religious text that wasn't full of ambiguity would never take off.

[dwad]

Jan 29, 2009 13:12:31 GMT VikingHumpingWitch said:

There are Christians who believe the Bible should be taken literally. There are a lot of them in the US, almost all of my family for starters. That there are intelligent people elsewhere capable of ignoring parts of the OT or reinterpreting them as allegorical just goes to show wot I mean about people not following religious texts in the same way.

I think you are lumping ignoring and reinterpreting in the same group. I think they are quite different. If you ignore stuff then why do you believe it?

[VikingHumpingWitch]

I kind of see them as similar. "This bit doesn't fit in with what I want to believe, how can I get around it" - either brush it under the carpet ("oh well that was old laws, Jesus kind of hinted that the old laws weren't all that") or reinterpret ("obviously an allegory").

[dwad]

Jan 29, 2009 13:24:57 GMT VikingHumpingWitch said:

I kind of see them as similar. "This bit doesn't fit in with what I want to believe, how can I get around it" - either brush it under the carpet ("oh well that was old laws, Jesus kind of hinted that the old laws weren't all that") or reinterpret ("obviously an allegory").

You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding the whole point of Jesus/Christianity or judging it by your own standard here?

[VikingHumpingWitch]

Well I was raised a Catholic remember, not a Dwadian. Your version of Christianity doesn't match the one I got fed.

[bertrus2]

fundamentally misunderstanding the whole point of Jesus/Christianity

You are arrogantly and irrationally assuming that your god, out of all the millions of gods, is the real god. Then, you are doubling up on that arrogance and irrationality by claiming that your version of this chosen god is the real deal.

[SKYBLUE]

Jan 29, 2009 15:00:47 GMT bertrus2 said:

fundamentally misunderstanding the whole point of Jesus/Christianity

You are arrogantly and irrationally assuming that your god, out of all the millions of gods, is the real god. Then, you are doubling up on that arrogance and irrationality by claiming that your version of this chosen god is the real deal.

Nahhhhh! No Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

Off course, you're all absolutely wrong!

MY GOD ..is the real true God!

[dwad]

Jan 29, 2009 15:00:47 GMT bertrus2 said:

fundamentally misunderstanding the whole point of Jesus/Christianity

You are arrogantly and irrationally assuming that your god, out of all the millions of gods, is the real god. Then, you are doubling up on that arrogance and irrationality by claiming that your version of this chosen god is the real deal.

You are boringly, irrelevantly and repeatedly interupting other people to blather on about your own pet hobby-horse, replies to which you always ignore anyway. Get a life. Or a new horse.

[dwad]

Jan 29, 2009 13:34:42 GMT VikingHumpingWitch said:

Well I was raised a Catholic remember, not a Dwadian. Your version of Christianity doesn't match the one I got fed.

I'm largely advocating here that nobody should be feel they are fed anything or be nominally assigned a faith. People should look for themselves.

[bertrus2]

You are boringly, irrelevantly and repeatedly interupting other people to blather on about your own pet hobby-horse,

You're illustrating your arrogant irrationality. There are no grounds for proclaiming that your god, of the millions of gods, is the really, real god, and even less for insisting that your personal vesrion of your chosen god, is the super-duper top class version of the brand.

The gods are imaginary beings and your personal version of your chosen imaginary being, can't stand up to discussion. I would point out that there are a billion non-religious people in the world and that your description of this position as a 'pet hobby-horse' is simply ignorant.

[VikingHumpingWitch]

Jan 29, 2009 15:36:24 GMT dwad said:

Jan 29, 2009 13:34:42 GMT VikingHumpingWitch said:

Well I was raised a Catholic remember, not a Dwadian. Your version of Christianity doesn't match the one I got fed.

I'm largely advocating here that nobody should be feel they are fed anything or be nominally assigned a faith. People should look for themselves.

Yes. That makes your brand of Christianity substantially different from Catholicism.

[silkbreeze]

but that's not the point, each to their own; it is when a group of similar believers proselytize, with violence, their god and only their version of the rules of life
jews, by the way, are not 'allowed' to proselytize.
bertrus, you seem to be uncommonly upset by dwad's faith and insistance that his chosen god is the one for him, and as long as he does not impose his beliefs on anyone, anyone else - not family, friends or whatever...fine by me
unfortunately though most groups of god worshipers, have as all groups do, a violent element.....
whilst all fundamentalism is the least palatable manifestation of faith - am i very wary indeed of the potential of islamic fundamentalism..to me it is more political than spiritual and therein lies the evil

[dwad]

The gods are imaginary beings and your personal version of your chosen imaginary being, can't stand up to discussion.

At the risk of engaging you in some way, part of the reason I choose this particular version is that he manifested as a historical physical person - he is not imaginary.

I would point out that there are a billion non-religious people in the world and that your description of this position as a 'pet hobby-horse' is simply ignorant.

No it's not. It's directed soley, completely and 100% at you because you are the only one who comes on these boards and bangs on about it ad nauseam, in every thread, forever, like a broken record.

[bertrus2]

he manifested as a historical physical person - he is not imaginary.

If HE/SHE is imaginary, HE/SHE did not 'manifest' HIMSELF/HERSELF as a real person. You first have to establish the claim that this particular god, out of the many, many gods, has credibility before it starts 'manifesting' itself. We 'Atheists for Jesus', recognize Jesus as an interesting moral teacher with a dramatic story without giving any credence at all to the magic and mythology.

you because you are the only one who comes on these boards and bangs on about it ad nauseam, in every thread, forever, like a broken record.

Whereas your banging on about supernatural mumbo-jumbo is perfectly natural and justifiable and tales of a god who copulated with a Palestinian girl in a mysterious way and fathered a demi-god who was really his own father and was tortured and killed by his father who was really himself but wasn't really killed because he was strolling around the countryside after his supposed death, until he shot like a rocket into the sky to live in an unknown realm, till he visits us again to dispatch some of us to eternal damnation and others to eternal bliss, entirely on his own whim, is so stone-cold sober sane that it shouldn't require the slightest explanation.

[dwad]

We 'Atheists for Jesus', recognize Jesus as an interesting moral teacher with a dramatic story without giving any credence at all to the magic and mythology.

Well, you've answered your own question then - even you seem to think my chosen God was at least a bit special and your an atheist.

Whereas your banging on about supernatural mumbo-jumbo is perfectly natural and justifiable and tales of a god who copulated with a Palestinian girl in a mysterious way and fathered a demi-god who was really his own father and was tortured and killed by his father who was really himself but wasn't really killed because he was strolling around the countryside after his supposed death, until he shot like a rocket into the sky to live in an unknown realm, till he visits us again to dispatch some of us to eternal damnation and others to eternal bliss, entirely on his own whim, is so stone-cold sober sane that it shouldn't require the slightest explanation

As ever I would remind you that I have never ever started or even steered a thread onto the topic of religion. I like to bang on about smoking mostly.