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Post by cobblers on Jan 29, 2009 17:10:27 GMT
"And the existence of a few of these lapsed muslims does not make the intrinsic hostility of Islam (note my emphasis on the ideology rather than this or that idiosyncratic individual I may be able to find) to the non muslim world any the less." No indeed. Incidentally are there any major religions beside Judaism which are not intrinsically hostile to unbelievers? I suppose it boils down to whether you believe the majority of people are inclined towards excessive religiosity or not. I think not. A random thought though - IMHO the UK is going to see an increase in fundie Muslimness among young Muslims unless this demonising of Muslims stops really soon. Because teenagers rebel, and the easiest way to do that in 2009 Britain is to head backwards into your religion. Tell them not to do it and they'll be leaping into burkhas and bushy beards quicker than you say what's wrong with drinking and shagging like we did when we were teens. You've got it topsy turvy VHW. It's the increasing militantism of Islam (which was always inherent but was in abeyance after the end of the Ottoman Empire as the arab world flirted with western ideas of nationalism, socialism etc) which is causing people to wise up as to what it's really about. That is going to increase criticism. You wouldn't refrain from criticising other forms of fascism just in case they got more extreme as a result? Or would you, if you were totally craven. It's not really 'telling them not to do it' it is making valid informed criticism of a harmful belief system. Pretending 'real Islam' is something completely different to what it really is and that it is A-OK is what incubates and nurtures extremism - as all it takes to become an extemist is to study Islam, following established rules, and come to the inevitable conclusion to make war on unbelief and the unbeliever. |
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Post by cobblers on Jan 29, 2009 17:13:53 GMT
Deutoronomy definitely got some good laughs in it. I think Leviticus is the one with all the don't wear cotton/nylon mixes in it, also funny. There are Christians who believe the Bible should be taken literally. There are a lot of them in the US, almost all of my family for starters. That there are intelligent people elsewhere capable of ignoring parts of the OT or reinterpreting them as allegorical just goes to show wot I mean about people not following religious texts in the same way. Actually, I think a religious text that wasn't full of ambiguity would never take off. But there's no mistaking the general spirit of a religious text, unless it's complete gobbledegook from start to finish (like scientology). The general timbre of Islam... well, you have to read it for yourself VHW. |
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Post by bertrus2 on Jan 29, 2009 17:27:13 GMT
the increasing militantism of Islam The world wars were not Islamic. Islam has a very long way to go before it shows an increase in violence over the West. All major military powers and the violence they practise or (except for Pamkistan) they threaten are not Islamic. Israel gives an example. It's military power was so uncontested in the onslaught on Gaza that it was no more a feat of arms than the German destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto. The 'militancy' of Islam is a sign of its weakness when it encounters the overwhelming power of the West. They bawl, we bomb. They have destroyed buildings. We have demolished whole countries. |
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VikingHumpingWitch
New Member
"My philosophy in life is keep dry and keep away from children. I got it from a matchbox."
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Post by VikingHumpingWitch on Jan 29, 2009 17:37:37 GMT
I don't mean criticising the tenets of Islam. I mean the demonising of Muslims. Two very very different things. By all means criticise the religion if you can base it in knowledge and fact. But the daily printing of stories whose only point is to highlight the failings of individuals and link that to their religion is, I think, extremely divisive, dangrous and nasty.
For example. A story about some horrific atrocity committed due to Sharia Law (whether it's an executiion elsewhere in the world or a UK citizen committing an honour killing) are perfectly valid news items.
A headline saying "Muslim outrage over police puppy" which plays heavily on the outrage and drastically downplays the fact that one Muslim complained and every other Muslim available for comment said they weren't bothered at all - this is not wise.
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Post by cobblers on Jan 29, 2009 17:54:12 GMT
No you've got that wrong. Islam has always had expansionist and imperialist designs, it's just that that aspect had fallen into abeyance first under the Ottomans who had to deal with the fact of Western ascendancy and second after the fall of the Ottoman Empire when the Caliphate was broken up and the arab states flirted with western ideas of nationalism, secularism.
It was a very short time (approximately 10 years) between the end of the Caliphate/Ottoman Empire and the resurgence of muscular political Islam. The formation of the muslim brotherhood occurred in 1928.
Do some more reading Bertrus.
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Post by cobblers on Jan 29, 2009 17:59:32 GMT
"I don't mean criticising the tenets of Islam. I mean the demonising of Muslims."
From a devout muslim's point of view they're the same. Criticise any aspect of sharia or Islamic belief and practice and you are attacking the 'Ummah' and muslims, from their point of view. The Islamic idea of Tawheed or 'oneness' does not just relate to monotheism, it refers to Islam's indivisible nature. The believer cannot pick and choose unless they reject several of the system fundamental tenets. Which is why someone like Irshad Manji, admirable though her efforts are, is thought to be at best seriously misguided or at worst an apostate worthy of execution.
There's even passages in the Koran (understandably) predicting non-muslims (understandable) opposition to Islam. If you want to identify first causes of the conflict, look at the Koran. It is all set out there.
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Post by bertrus2 on Jan 29, 2009 21:33:25 GMT
Do some more reading Bertrus. Your limited and incompetent reading of sacred texts came to mind when I read the report of the Turkish Prime Minister's expression of outrage at Operation Warsaw Ghetto by Israel in Gaza. DAVOS, Switzerland (AP) — Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan stalked off the stage at the World Economic Forum red-faced after verbally sparring with Israeli President Shimon Peres over the fighting in Gaza. The episode came Thursday after a lengthy debate about the recent fighting in Gaza that claimed about 1,300 Palestinian lives. ...Ergodan brushed past reporters outside the hall. His wife appeared upset. "All Peres said was a lie. It was unacceptable," she said, eyes glistening .Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Turks; people with small eyes, red faces, and flat noses. Their faces will look like shields coated with leather. The Hour will not be established till you fight with people whose shoes are made of hair." Hadith 4:179Muhammad Ismâ'îl al-Bukhârî Narrated Abu Huraira: |
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Post by cobblers on Jan 30, 2009 1:35:22 GMT
What are you talking about?
You've obviously never read the Koran or the hadith and you certainly don't understand their significance to muslims. That is a fake quote, I have no idea what you are getting at by posting it up.
One wonders what you have read, other than Richard Dawkins, who you seem unable to be at all critical of. I think in you Bertrus we find a person with very little formal education.
Your comparison oif the situation in Gaza with the Warsaw ghetto is both crass and an egregious example of your ignorance and hyperbole.
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Post by cobblers on Jan 30, 2009 1:37:52 GMT
A headline saying "Muslim outrage over police puppy" which plays heavily on the outrage and drastically downplays the fact that one Muslim complained and every other Muslim available for comment said they weren't bothered at all - this is not wise. Just because some antipathy towards Islam is uninformed and poorly expressed does not make it all invalid. |
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Post by Ian on Jan 30, 2009 10:40:09 GMT
Not often I agree with Bertrus, but he does have a point here, when you look at it like that, its clear that anyone who believes this is obviously not quite the full quid, and deserves to be mocked in the same way as, I dunno, someone that still believes in the tooth fairy..
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Post by cobblers on Jan 30, 2009 12:45:57 GMT
There is a political reality to it. Once again I have to point out it is not me who believes it. What I believe in is its real-world effect.
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dwad
New Member
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Post by dwad on Jan 30, 2009 13:10:35 GMT
Not often I agree with Bertrus, but he does have a point here, when you look at it like that, its clear that anyone who believes this is obviously not quite the full quid, and deserves to be mocked in the same way as, I dunno, someone that still believes in the tooth fairy.. Although aside from the snidey sarcastic jibes at the man he claims to admire I can count nine factual errors in what Bertrus writes so we're okay there. |
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Post by bertrus2 on Jan 30, 2009 16:07:23 GMT
I can count nine factual errors in what Bertrus writes so we're okay there. dwad How can there be factual errors in a loony religious proposition? In any case, you are claiming papal infallibilty for your individual eccentric position on the issue. |
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Post by bertrus2 on Jan 30, 2009 16:19:22 GMT
You've obviously never read the Koran or the hadith and you certainly don't understand their significance to Muslims. That is a fake quote, I have no idea what you are getting at by posting it up. You do have a crazed self-confidence about your ability to conclude what other people have read and not read. What about the 'fake quote' assertion? Do you mean that the Hadith contain fakes or that this quotation is not among the Hadith? I'd be interested why, from your amateurish self-taught position, you are making that assertion. As to your 'having no idea' that would come from your plodding inability to understand anything that doesn't fit your limited cultural literacy. Your comparison of the situation in Gaza with the Warsaw ghetto is both crass and an egregious example of your ignorance and hyperbole. The points of comparison are that the inhabitants of Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto were trapped and unable to flee and that there was no war, just mass murder by enormously better armed and organized government forces. |
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